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Old 04-13-2013, 02:38 PM   #57
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No offense to the guys at Grimmspeed and I have heard some bad things about Swifts(SRT) customer service on exhaust systems but one pretty similar to this prototype is already available for $100.
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Old 04-13-2013, 10:01 PM   #58
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keen on the concept.

Keep us updated
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Old 04-13-2013, 10:21 PM   #59
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This design looks alright. It's strong and adjustable too.





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Old 04-13-2013, 11:46 PM   #60
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What advantages are there in adjustable strut bars?
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Old 04-14-2013, 12:43 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Captain Snooze View Post
What advantages are there in adjustable strut bars?
I would imagine the usual load on the struts would be in compression?
If so you could fit them and then preload them, in extension, against that compression, to keep the structure very rigid.
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Old 04-15-2013, 02:52 AM   #62
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Glad I waited out my Cusco urges... after I got the G*S hood struts, I knew I'd buy more of their stuff. So far, my only thoughts are what have already been voiced: function more than form, maybe different colors and solid mounts. In for groupbuy already.
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Old 04-15-2013, 10:36 AM   #63
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Alright, here we go, your Monday morning update!
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Originally Posted by Captain Snooze View Post
No way!! If it doesn't cost $102.47 I'm not buying it!


This.
Personally I would prefer plain black, no logo. I appreciate from a marketing point of view this might not be the best option for GrimmSpeed. I have the Perrin intake fitted and have put black tape around the tube over the logo. I have tried to peel it off to no avail. I prefer the look of a plain under bonnet/hood, not cluttered with 1/2 dozen different brand names.

I really really like the look! Stark functionally.

Maybe something as simple as a clip similar to this would be sufficient. Perhaps where the coolant hose passes through would need to be rubberised to stop flex wear. Just a suggestion.
Sounds like we're on the right track with the design and branding and that clip is very similar what we had in mind! We'll definitely get back to you guys for more branding feedback as that becomes a priority!
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Originally Posted by sierra View Post
How about making all 3 bars in aluminium with the rear bars bolting to the front bar mounting? That will mean plenty of stud to allow for a strong[thick] strut mounting bracket and also keep freight down because the 3 bars can be packed together.

Have you weighed the front bars?

A small weight gain for beautiful curves is always acceptable to me.
Thanks for the input! Believe me when I tell you that we've done a great deal of research regarding what's available and what our material/design options are. From there, we create a set of requirements for our design and on this project, we decided that those requirements are to produce a bar with zero sacrifice in function but at a very affordable price. We'd love to design a 'baller' bar, and perhaps sometime in the future we will, but for now, we're looking for maximum performance without a high-end cost. For that reason, the bar will likely be welded steel construction, similar to what's been shown so far.

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Originally Posted by RazBRZ View Post
I would like to see you make the triangle bars. But keep them separate, as an option and or a completely separate buy altogether. Also I run a Crawford AOS, So keeping with the OEM look with similar mounting is important for me. Other than that, I like everything you stated above and I can't wait to see what happens
Great input! Seems like a lot of people have interest in the separate triangle bars. We will definitely do some digging to see how the performance benefit compares to the cost and let you guys know what we find.

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Originally Posted by s2d4 View Post
Are you talking about a stick on part? people can slap it on or leave it off if they want?

What do you mean more beautiful?
We'll definitely be hitting you guys up for input on the branding of the product when the times comes, don't worry! I think that what Chase meant by more beautiful is that if a few extra bucks (literally) gets you a more aesthetically pleasing part in your engine bay, it's probably worth it. Nothing major, just nicer brackets, etc.

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Originally Posted by u/Josh View Post
Did you do any deflection testing with your bar alone (stock triangulation bars removed)?
I'm not sure if Chase has any 'official' data on this, but I know he did some testing. The testing that's been done so far has been so that we can feel good about spending the time and resources to move forward with developing the product. As part of that development, way more testing will be done.
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Originally Posted by Captain Snooze View Post
Curves<->Woman=Good
Curves<->Tower Brace=Bad

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Originally Posted by dawnst3ar View Post
So, I know NOTHING about tower braces, but so far, I like the direction you are going. A larger bracket would be on my wish list, along with red to go with all the other Grimm stuff in my bay. Personally, in the limited research I have done, my favorite was one that had a bracket that went all the way around the hole in the tower.
Thanks for the input! We really do appreciate everybody's opinions. Why on Earth anybody designs and develops a product with input from the people that are going to use it certainly makes no sense to us! :happy0180:
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkAsphalt View Post
I love the look, may I suggest you make a nice 4-5 inch wide grim speed gold plaque (like the ones included with your hood struts) to be placed on the center middle of the brace?

why? because sexy
Added this to our branding ideas chart!
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Originally Posted by Jeffboyarrdee View Post
After reading the input and GS's direction, I like that this is going function over form...well in this case form makes all the difference but you all get what I mean. I think that if the tests show hollow vs solid makes no huge difference, then hollow it is! If creating new triangular bars be non beneficial or even add a significant increase in price this may not be the best direction. Even small engravings or textures can add to the price. I think that their goal of a very very affordable and yet reliable product is marketing in itself that would separate from the rest. I'm excited for this!
Right on! You think a lot like we do!
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Originally Posted by knipple View Post
As long as the Grimspeed bar remains a 2 point bar, as in only connects the strut tower bars, this bar will be legal for STX. If the Grimspeed bar ends up being a 3 point bar (e.g. replaces the bars that connect the strut tower to the firewall and is integral to the strut bar), it is no longer legal for STX.

This bar is NOT legal for CS though.
This is the reason that we're going to keep the triangulation bars separate for now. In the future, I could definitely see having both a 2pt and 3pt bar or three separate bars. We are certainly mindful of autox guys!
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Originally Posted by RazBRZ View Post
* Please keep STX legal.
What about the triangle bars as separate pieces, would that still be legal? Or can they not be replaced period?
You'll have to check your scca rulebook, but I'd bet you need to keep your stock triangulation bars in place.
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Originally Posted by tripjammer View Post
Wow less than $150? I am sold. I am going to wait and get this bar. I was almost ready to drop the coin on the Cusco strut tower bar with the built in brake master cylinder brace.

I know you want to keep you bar simple and I am all for that. I think y'all have the best stand alone brake master cylinder brace. What if you incorporate that into an optional bar like Cusco does for people who don't have your brake master cylinder brace?
We've definitely thought about this. What we came up with is that a 2-in-1 bar/mcb requires a performance sacrifice on both, and we're not down with that! Who knows, maybe in the next few weeks we'll come up with some new ideas and that'll change!
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Originally Posted by ATL BRZ View Post
Love all your stuff, @GrimmSpeed! You're one of my favorite vendors here because you keep the community involved from development to release, and all your products are well-engineered and fairly priced!

I'll be waiting for this strut brace (group buy?) to compliment my GrimmSpeed hood struts and MCB.
Thanks! We'll definitely be extending some awesome pricing to you guys in the beginning, as usual.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mottor View Post
I agree, let's keep it STX legal please.

Also agree with others' earlier posts in keeping it as plain and simple as possible. I personally don't care if it matches the finish of the OEM bars as it's an aftermarket part anyway, and I like the black wrinkle finish used for the MCB. The ideas for a hint of red finish to match the MCB or a stick on plate like the hood struts are both good options too. If I had to pick I'd go with the red, but that's because it matches the color scheme I'm trying to stick with.

Strong=Light>Price>Aesthetics IMO. Keep up the good work guys, it is much appreciated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sbxjap View Post
What makes me mad is that I'm already doing a Cusco setup, lol

I hope this part gets a lot of attention as I'm all for GrimmSpeed.
Thanks for the support! As with the hood struts, I suspect there might be a handful of used alternatives for sale once we get this released.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clembo View Post
Has anyone contacted the design engineers about the original analysis for the stock triangular bars? What, if any, were the original requirements for the stock triangle bar installation (preload, strut tower position, point at assembley, etc.)? And what were the fastening requirements? When I see mounting studs intentionally painted after fastener installation I assume there was a torque requirement. And does this torque stretch the mounting studs as it does in some cases? If so, these studs may require replacement before reusing them as attachment points. And depending on the new loading forces and directions, they may require resizing as well.

I'm not questioning your present analysis or data, only that without knowing the original parameters, you may be unintentionally altering some of the original design assumptions and/or criterior. I see people yanking parts off their cars all the time (and often replacing them with something else) with little thought as to how or why they were put there in the first place. In most cases and for street use, it probably doesn't matter much. But for the track or extreme conditions it may be a different story.

Sorry for being over-cautious but I come from the nuclear world where engineering often took a huge number of variables into consideration. And without a solid understanding of all these variables, it was easy to get in trouble.
I'm originally from the defense industry, so I know what you're getting at here. There's obviously a long and short answer to this. The short answer is that getting a hold of the right people at an auto manufacturer is nearly impossible and beyond that, getting answers from them is even more difficult. Our job is to do what we can with the information that we have. Aside from the fact that TRD used the same mounting points, we have a shop car and a product like this will typically see at least a few thousand miles of use before we're even close to releasing it. If there are issues, you can bet will coax them out of the design prior to production.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shankenstein View Post
It's a valid concern that painted bolts indicate QC procedure. Typically, we use a colored dot to denote loctite (blue, green red). A line (swipe) with a grease pen is used to indicate final installation. Once the part has been installed and torqued, the line will show if the bolt backs out or if maintenance has been performed. Perfectly lining up the mark after maintenance is more work than most techs care to do, so it's a good indicator. If the bolt is realy at risk of backing out, cotter pins and safety wire will be used. You won't see many of these on cars (besides the axles), because it's cheaper to overdesign.

As far as reusing the mounts, the factor of safety on those bolts is insane. In single shear mounting, bolts can handle ALOT of force. Most of the load is shared by the structural pieces you're connecting. The reason an engineer would overdesign them, is when the nut walks out... the force is no longer shear (in plane), it becomes bending (out of plane). Strength drops alot. You have to design around bad mechanics and neglectful high schoolers. If everything is tight and properly aligned, you could probably hang the car from those 4 bolts.

Here's a question for ya'll. Have you ever seen a broken strut tower bar? It doesn't happen very often. When they do though, it never happens on the bar itself. Failure is many times due to over-tightening of bolts or shock loading causing failure at a weld/bend near the mounting plate.

The gussets on the GS bar mount seem to be pretty robust in that regard. Not too worried about them finding real estate for a logo either... everything they fab up has G*S etched/laser cut in it.
:happy0180:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeBoxer View Post
No offense to the guys at Grimmspeed and I have heard some bad things about Swifts(SRT) customer service on exhaust systems but one pretty similar to this prototype is already available for $100.
No offense taken, we actually like the look of the SRT bar. Aside from a good handful design decisions that we don't agree with, we believe that customer service and support are nearly as important as having a great product. If you buy our bar and it breaks 3yrs from now, a phone call is typically all it will take to get a new one. It's also worth mentioning that MSRP on that bar is $150. As a manufacturer, when we talk pricing, we talk MSRP. You'll find it cheaper with retailers or through our initial group buy, but that's not how we set a target price.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anduz View Post
keen on the concept.

Keep us updated

Quote:
Originally Posted by sierra View Post
This design looks alright. It's strong and adjustable too.




Thanks for the input!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Snooze View Post
What advantages are there in adjustable strut bars?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sierra View Post
I would imagine the usual load on the struts would be in compression?
If so you could fit them and then preload them, in extension, against that compression, to keep the structure very rigid.
The bar will see both tension and compression in use. Often and unfortunately, the adjustment is there to pick up any slack left by poor manufacturing or design. If you properly tighten down both mounting points for the bar, the bar will not slip back and forth and there's no need to preload the bar. Another reason for a multi-piece bar would be on an older chassis, were it's been tweaked enough that a tight-fitting bar won't even install. Not an issue with these cars. We have a lot of cars come through for testing of various products and more often than not, multi-piece bars are broken, loose or missing hardware. We'd like a 'set it and forget it' installation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by disgruntld View Post
Glad I waited out my Cusco urges... after I got the G*S hood struts, I knew I'd buy more of their stuff. So far, my only thoughts are what have already been voiced: function more than form, maybe different colors and solid mounts. In for groupbuy already.
We'll add you to 'the list' when it gets started!

Happy Monday!

Matt
Engineering
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Old 04-15-2013, 11:37 AM   #64
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How did i miss this for 7 days!?!?


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Old 04-15-2013, 04:54 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RazBRZ View Post
* Please keep STX legal.
What about the triangle bars as separate pieces, would that still be legal? Or can they not be replaced period?
Per the February Fastrack: “On the Subaru BRZ/Scion FRS, the pair of OE strut tower-to-firewall braces are not considered to be a strut bar
(per 12.18), and as such are not allowed to be removed, modified or substituted (per 14.2.G).”

Therefore, the triangle bars are not legal for STX legal
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Old 04-15-2013, 08:53 PM   #66
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Hey guys, just wanted to poke my head in here and say THANK YOU for all of the feedback. It makes all of our jobs(especially Matt and Chase's) much more fun when we can interact this much with you guys during development. It truly is a pleasure to be able to incorporate some of your thoughts/ideas into the final product.

I can't wait to release a kick ass part for you guys!

Justin Grimm
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Old 04-15-2013, 09:15 PM   #67
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@GrimmSpeed: I've only recently become acquainted with you guys with the hood strut purchase. What is your typical turnaround time from idea to conception for your products? Didn't the hood struts only take barely 9 months? I forget. Anyways, I've seen you guys around for a while, but never paid attention until the struts. Now I'm a believer and looking forward to this next product!
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Old 04-15-2013, 09:23 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrimmSpeed View Post
We'd love to design a 'baller' bar, and perhaps sometime in the future we will, but for now, we're looking for maximum performance without a high-end cost. For that reason, the bar will likely be welded steel construction, similar to what's been shown so far.

Matt
Engineering
If it's steel I doubt I will buy one. Aluminium alloy will achieve the same rigidity for less additional weight and that factor is critical on this car.

The brackets for the struts could have been alloy too. Bolting steel onto the alloy bonnet was the only negative to that kit and I would happily pay the extra cost.

Last edited by sierra; 04-15-2013 at 09:35 PM.
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Old 04-15-2013, 10:36 PM   #69
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The short answer is that getting a hold of the right people at an auto manufacturer is nearly impossible and beyond that, getting answers from them is even more difficult.
Are you guys SEMA members, at the manufacturer level? Tech Transfer would get you the CAD data, and many times you can glean information from that, as to how/why things are done, ie bars too short/long being designed for preload, etc. I don't believe Subaru participates, but Scion does.

http://www.sema.org/tech-transfer

I never dealt with data from Scion, but GM is great to work with via this program.
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Old 04-16-2013, 12:28 AM   #70
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Quote:
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If it's steel I doubt I will buy one. Aluminium alloy will achieve the same rigidity for less additional weight and that factor is critical on this car.

The brackets for the struts could have been alloy too. Bolting steel onto the alloy bonnet was the only negative to that kit and I would happily pay the extra cost.
Bummer!

One thing to remember is that in the manufacturing world, the cost difference is not simply in material cost. Most people don't mind an extra half pound to save a good amount of money. Because of that, a smaller production run of aluminum parts is substantially more expensive and would have quite easily doubled the cost of the kit.

For what it's worth, in this application, the weight difference between two comparably rigid bars (one aluminum, one steel) is quite subtle. Think on the scale of two tenths of a gallon of gasoline.

That said, we appreciate the valuable and honest feedback! The design isn't complete and it's not too late to make changes. Chase and I will discus materials more closely in the morning!

Matt
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