Official: Toyota FT-1 Concept / First New Supra Prototype Spotted!

[Racecomp Engineering]

The correct term is "flappy paddle transmission."

- Andrew

[Clipdat]

Fixed.

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

The correct term is "flappy paddle gearbox."

- Andrew

[abraxis]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

We may have had this discussion before.
When driving my mum's Yaris, which is an automatic, I play around with the "gear" selector. That is, I will force the gearbox down a gear for engine braking or approaching a steep (for the Yaris) incline. So is this an auto or not?
If I leave a dct transmission in auto mode is it not an auto?
"Most serious modern race transmissions have no clutch pedal and can NOT be selected automatically" sure but the driver is not changing the gear; they are choosing the gear. S/he is flicking a switch.

"A dual-clutch transmission, (DCT) (sometimes referred to as a twin-clutch transmission or double-clutch transmission), is a type of automatic transmission or automated automotive transmission."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual-clutch_transmission

For more, see semi-auto versus fully automatic washing machines.

Obviously quoting text is not an indication of someone actually reading and comprehending it or the actual thread before it. I'll say it again since this appears to be a slow news day, a modern automatic transmission can be operated in a manual mode thanks to modern electronics, a modern manually selectable semi automatic transmission can be operated in an auto mode thanks to those same modern electronics.

For more, see a Venn diagram.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venn_diagram

I'm curious how you would operate a Formula One or other race type of DCT in auto mode since they don't have it.

https://www.formula1.com/en/champion...--gearbox.html

"Formula One cars use highly sophisticated semi-automatic, seamless shift gearboxes......But despite such high levels of technology, fully automatic transmission systems, and gearbox-related wizardry such as launch control, are illegal - a measure designed to keep costs down and place more emphasis on driver skill."

Can you find me a torque converter hydramatic/automatic transmission that was only designed to be operated manually? If you still find this confusing, see above.

Btw, what kind of semi auto washing machines are you folks using in the outback these days? Is this a result of the Coriolis effect or high ABV?

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by abraxis

Obviously quoting text is not an indication of someone actually reading and comprehending it or the actual thread before it. I'll say it again since this appears to be a slow news day, a modern automatic transmission can be operated in a manual mode thanks to modern electronics, a modern manually selectable semi automatic transmission can be operated in an auto mode thanks to those same modern electronics.

For more, see a Venn diagram.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venn_diagram

I'm curious how you would operate a Formula One or other race type of DCT in auto mode since they don't have it.

https://www.formula1.com/en/champion...--gearbox.html

"Formula One cars use highly sophisticated semi-automatic, seamless shift gearboxes......But despite such high levels of technology, fully automatic transmission systems, and gearbox-related wizardry such as launch control, are illegal - a measure designed to keep costs down and place more emphasis on driver skill."

Can you find me a torque converter hydramatic/automatic transmission that was only designed to be operated manually? If you still find this confusing, see above.

Btw, what kind of semi auto washing machines are you folks using in the outback these days? Is this a result of the Coriolis effect or high ABV?

I get your point, but I must add that arguing definitions when discussing the 'grey area' of a topic is usually a wasted endeavor; there is usually just too much subjective opinion muddling up the talking points. Nevertheless, I shall also give my muddled, subjective opinion.

A manual transmission requires the driver to disengage the engine from the transmission using a clutch pedal and requires the driver to move a linkage to slide a gear out of position and a new gear into synchronization with the drive assembly. This process is fundamentally basic in architecture, yet it requires the maximum in both effort and skill to perform. Every deviation from this architecture that complexes this system, while reducing the effort and skill necessary to perform said operations is an automatic or semi-automatic transmission.

I have driven a Ferrari F430 with a DCT. Some things to note: the car will go to redline and not shift, if the driver doesn't hit the 'gear selector'; with that said, the transmission selects the gear more often than the driver. What do I mean? If the driver has the car in neutral and selects first gear then the driver put it in gear, but not physically, right? The paddle didn't move a linkage like with a stick shifter; a computer servo thingy moved the linkage, and it gets worse. Once in first gear the computer puts the transmission in standby mode for second gear. Yes, the computer already has engaged second gear before the driver. By upshifting with the flappy paddle, the driver hasn't actually selected a gear; the driver has asked the computer to disengage the odd, geared clutch and shaft, and now to engage the even, geared clutch and shaft. Hmmmmm, this really isn't manual driving at all, is it?

Ahhh, but I can see the argument circling back around to the fact that if the driver doesn't hit that flappy paddle then the car will redline to destruction. Well, to that argument I reply with the fact that all the engineers would have to do to turn a DCT that doesn't shift into a full automatic that shifts without the driver's input is to write some code for the computer to automatically shift, since everything is in place for the transmission to operate independent of the driver.

[abraxis]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Well, to that argument I reply with the fact that all the engineers would have to do to turn a DCT that doesn't shift into a full automatic that shifts without the driver's input is to write some code for the computer to automatically shift, since everything is in place for the transmission to operate independent of the driver.

Thank you for proving my point. That everything is NOT there, otherwise why would you have to 'add' anything whether it's code, actuators, etc? The absence of these 'additions' means it can not function as an automatic unless it is altered or changed. I mean, I could go buy a kit or some parts and add them to a clutch pedal transmission and make them behave like a button or paddle shifted semi or auto as well.

In the engineering world clutch pedal transmissions, SMTs and DCTs share a common family heritage and design language that is completely unlike automatic transmissions such as hydramatics that use planetary gear sets and torque converters, or even more recent CVTs. The first three were designed WITH the intent of the driver manually selecting gears; convenience features added later. The latter two designed to operate precisely WITHOUT driver input for the sake of either convenience or optimum efficiency and mileage. Think of a biological tree where automatics branches off from the stick shift and form two distinct species yet both continue to evolve independent of each other into more modern forms.

Hopefully this helps prevent that next awkward moment when someone has trouble explaining to their family or friends how a transmission that can't actually select its own gears is being referred to as 'automatic'. Don't be that guy! Your LSAT scores will thank you later.

...and yes, subjective opinion is one thing, objective fact and deductive logic are something else entirely. This deviation is very often the source of much wasted time and space on forums. People often confuse their right to an opinion with actually being right in their opinion.

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by abraxis

Hopefully this helps prevent that next awkward moment when someone has trouble explaining to their family or friends how a transmission that can't actually select its own gears is being referred to as 'automatic'. Don't be that guy! Your LSAT scores will thank you later.

I bet you're one of those people who would list their car as 'manual' if only given 2 transmission choices.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by abraxis

Thank you for proving my point. That everything is NOT there, otherwise why would you have to 'add' anything whether it's code, actuators, etc? The absence of these 'additions' means it can not function as an automatic unless it is altered or changed. I mean, I could go buy a kit or some parts and add them to a clutch pedal transmission and make them behave like a button or paddle shifted semi or auto as well.

Again, it wouldn't be actuators or anything complicated. It would just be software; it would be a reflashing of the ECU. The paddle shifters don't mechanically do anything. The ECU could be programmed to control shift timing just like a traditional planetary automatic. And a traditional planetary automatic could be programed with a flash to the ECU to not shift at all unless the driver pushes the drive selector to the + or the -. The fact that it is a planetary automatic or a dual clutch automatic doesn't change the fact that the computer is controlling the physical action of moving the mechanic stuff in the transmission.

If someone put an actuator on the clutch pedal and linked it to a button, and some contraption on the stick, so that paddle shifters initiated actuators that moved the stick into different gears, then it would be an automated manual transmission, or simply an automatic transmission for many people. You may not like that many people define a manual transmission by the history of transmissions, but they do. You may not like that many define a manual transmission by the fact that it requires the driver to move a mechanical lever to directly disengage the clutch then to move another mechanical lever to directly engage a gear, but they do.

Also, if your buddies ask you if you bought the manual or automatic Evo X then I hope you wouldn't tell them the Evo only came as a manual. If you do then don't be surprised if they give you a look.

[Guff]

Holy hell...

NOBODY CARES

Supra related stuff only from here forward.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by abraxis

In the engineering world clutch pedal transmissions, SMTs and DCTs share a common family heritage and design language that is completely unlike automatic transmissions such as hydramatics that use planetary gear sets and torque converters, or even more recent CVTs. The first three were designed WITH the intent of the driver manually selecting gears; convenience features added later. The latter two designed to operate precisely WITHOUT driver input for the sake of either convenience or optimum efficiency and mileage. Think of a biological tree where automatics branches off from the stick shift and form two distinct species yet both continue to evolve independent of each other into more modern forms.

I agree that in the engineering world there may be common ways engineers describe types of transmissions. But in the car enthusiast world there are cars with a stick and there are autos, and nothing gives many driving enthusiasts the same pleasure as physically operating three pedals and a shifter through the canons. Also, Acura offers a DCT with a torque converter for first gear because DCT's are notorious for having problems with getting up and going smoothly from a stop, something I can attest to in the Ferrari. That is why the family-tree-of-life analogy doesn't work because Acura evolved the two transmissions back together. And this article about Mazda's transmission development would also contradict your argument that traditional torque converter transmissions are all about convenience and not about speed of shifting, where they are showing that the traditional transmission could be better than a DCT:

http://www.businessinsider.com/mazda...instead-2011-8

Getting back to the Supra, I can imagine them making a traditional auto and a DCT. I think it is silly, as do many others, because we know many DCT's can work in full auto mode, just like many traditional transmissions offer paddle shifters like in the 86. Luxury brands seem to be going away from manual transmissions completely, offering it very rarely. Lexus is part of this trend, but this being a Toyota, I would be utterly shocked if it wasn't offered with a stick.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Guff

Holy hell...

NOBODY CARES

Supra related stuff only from here forward.

Oh you. Frat boys and their paddle boards, so eager to whip them out ;-) We know what you like

[gymratter]

http://www.supramkv.com/threads/bmw-...orsepower.673/

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by gymratter

http://www.supramkv.com/threads/bmw-...orsepower.673/

Freakin' forum inception going on here. Ft quotes, Supra. Supra quotes BMW. BMW all but says "we don't know but will make stuff up"


From the original:
"The top model of the upcoming BMW Z4 lineup might be offered in two configurations"
"at this time, we can’t state with certitude that the Z4 M40i will be offered with two different power options"
"But if we were to bet on something"

[gymratter]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Freakin' forum inception going on here. Ft quotes, Supra. Supra quotes BMW. BMW all but says "we don't know but will make stuff up"


From the original:
"The top model of the upcoming BMW Z4 lineup might be offered in two configurations"
"at this time, we can’t state with certitude that the Z4 M40i will be offered with two different power options"
"But if we were to bet on something"

don't shoot the messenger, im just doing what the admins have asked.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by gymratter

don't shoot the messenger, im just doing what the admins have asked.

Nah not you. It is indeed the message that I was pointing out.
Just fun how it went from pure (stated) speculation to "Bimmerpost members said the above is true and the US will only receive the more powerful version of the B58" and "US spec Z4 and Supra will have 385hp from BMW's B58" in just two forums. By the time it makes it through a couple more it will be recorded as an official statement from God.