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GR86 General Topics (2nd Gen 2022+ Toyota 86) General topics for the GR86 second-gen 86


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Old 12-01-2021, 09:49 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by nikitopo View Post
Not all evidence. Top speed in European car is very close to the old one which suggests that catalog power is not underrated. They didn't have any reason to underrate top speed in Germany and no reason to limit it electronically for stability reasons. If you don't want to listen me, then listen Tcoat. He knows what he is talking about...
The top speed may be aero limited.
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Old 12-01-2021, 10:07 PM   #58
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Brand hierarchy is still a thing. The 2.0 Supra has a reported 255hp @$43,000 and laid down 215whp at Dsports dynojet. The Gen2 86 is laying down similar whp @ $28k. Nothing is off they just underrated it like GM, BMW and Porsche have done for years. How is this a bad thing. The engine is performing far better than I anticipated. Its already throwing up near K24A swap numbers dead stock.
Which is a realistic 40HP driveline loss.
So you are saying they under rated one car and over rated the Supra?
Your very example shows my point. A 15HP loss is just not believable unless they grossly under rated the engine and think they are fooling anybody.
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Old 12-01-2021, 10:15 PM   #59
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I dont think its resentment, its uncertainty. If you own a Gen 1, you really cant make a decision whether its worth it through videos, or dyno comparisons, etc.

I wholeheartedly, without a doubt believe that the Gen 2 stock is faster than my 16 with tune and catless header. But from a DD perspective, is that extra torque and power, worth returning to stock , selling various parts or maybe transferring some to a Gen 2, the additional money on the trade or sale and paying taxes again.

My gut feeling is its not worth it for my DD, but I will never know for sure until I get to drive one and do a direct comparison for myself.

There may be some people looking for something to justify staying with the Gen 1 (some confirmation bias going on). But after 25 years in the science field I know how to be objective. At the moment I am happy with the Gen 1 even if every Gen 2 is faster than me. Every minivan has been faster than me for the last 5 years of ownership, so its meaningless.

But my opinion could change after driving one. Nothing beats the direct comparison.
Not resentment nor uncertainty. There is zero doubt that it is faster than the first gen.
All I have tried to say is that it SHOULD be faster than the first gen and in the overall scheme of things it will end up at about the same level as the first gen compared to other cars soon enough. Those minivans that seem to have kicked so many peoples ass over the last 8 years have been gaining power and speed. The second gen was not created in a vacuum.
It amazes me that with a MINOR bump in power it is all of a sudden what everybody wanted.
It is a very good improvement but did not suddenly become a supercar!
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Old 12-01-2021, 10:19 PM   #60
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Car & Driver Comparison Test Review: Veloster N vs. GTI vs. BRZ vs. GR86

The 2.0 Supra also puts down ~245 whp on other dyno sheets. BMW is known for under-rating their cars, Id be surprised the 2.0 Supra wouldnt be, especially since the 3.0 is.
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Old 12-01-2021, 10:23 PM   #61
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The top speed may be aero limited.
It may be electronically limited as well
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Old 12-01-2021, 10:23 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo View Post
The 2.0 Supra also puts down ~245 whp on other dyno sheets. BMW is known for under-rating their cars, Id be surprised the 2.0 Supra wouldnt be, especially since the 3.0 is.
So which one is right? Both? Neither? Only the ones you want to believe?
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Old 12-01-2021, 10:54 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tcoat View Post


So which one is right? Both? Neither? Only the ones you want to believe?

Exactly, which is why I was very skeptical of the FA24s dynos until the trap speed was known.
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Old 12-02-2021, 02:00 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by dragoontwo View Post
The top speed may be aero limited.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2 View Post
It may be electronically limited as well
Aero is supposed to be a bit better with the front fender vents. The automatic had a top speed of 210 km/h and now has 216 km/h. When they apply limiters they usually make them in rounded numbers (e.g., 210, 220, 250...). Besides top speed is again different between the manual and automatic cause of the different gearing. If they had a limiter it would make sense to have the same top speed.
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Old 12-02-2021, 03:38 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by nikitopo View Post
Not all evidence. Top speed in European car is very close to the old one which suggests that catalog power is not underrated.
Top speed tests are not easy to do, and are much more dependent on test parameters (head/tailwinds, how much runway available) than 1/4-mile trap speeds. But sure, if you have similar "top speed" test data for both done at the same venue in similar conditions, you can present it and we'll take it into account, with corresponding pinch of salt.

Meanwhile we have both the new BRZ and GR86 hitting 101mph in the 1/4 here: https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...-gti-compared/
Where the '17 hit 95mph here: https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...ru-brz-review/

95mph is the fastest I've seen for the 1st-gen from Car and Driver. Here they hit 94mph with an '20 86:
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-the-numbers/

Quote:
They didn't have any reason to underrate top speed in Germany and no reason to limit it electronically for stability reasons. If you don't want to listen me, then listen Tcoat. He knows what he is talking about...
No reasons *that you know of*!
There are multiple possibilities including:
Could have "found" some more power in the tune while meeting all regs after they'd gone public with 228hp.
Might not want to step on 2.0 Supra or WRX toes.
Any number of other possible reasons.

Tcoat strictly believes "factory" numbers. When real-world test data doesn't back those up, he doesn't understand what's happening:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tcoat View Post
Something is off someplace.
The new car is accelerating significantly more quickly vs. the old one than 228hp vs. 205hp suggests. Part of that is down to a more filled-in power curve, but in any case, it's acting a lot more like it has over 240hp rather than 228hp. Dyno results *seem* to back this up. And making max power at the same rpm as last-gen suggests that power should roughly scale up with displacement, or +20% rather than +11%.

In the end, it's just a simple fact that these cars are accelerating notably quicker than expected. So, good news...
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Old 12-02-2021, 04:15 AM   #66
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I think the improvement on the torque curve and delivery is what made reviewers like the second gen more. If the first gens had the same torque delivery i'm sure there would be less complainers even without the bump in hp
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Old 12-02-2021, 07:08 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by ZDan View Post
There are multiple possibilities including:
Could have "found" some more power in the tune while meeting all regs after they'd gone public with 228hp.
Might not want to step on 2.0 Supra or WRX toes.
Any number of other possible reasons.
Official Toyota number in Germany was given last week and it was 234 PS (= 231hp). It is 3hp more than the 228hp, so still not that much of a difference and not what selective dyno shops are suggesting.

I don't believe either in a conspiracy theory about keeping GR86 lower and to not step on 2.0 Supra or WRX toes. Toyota doesn't care if it sells a Supra or a GR86. Same about Subaru if it sells a WRX or a BRZ.
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Old 12-02-2021, 09:19 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by nikitopo View Post
Official Toyota number in Germany was given last week and it was 234 PS (= 231hp). It is 3hp more than the 228hp, so still not that much of a difference and not what selective dyno shops are suggesting.
+6mph faster and 1.0 sec quicker in the 1/4-mile is quite significant. A lot more than 228 or 231hp vs. 205hp would suggest. More like 242hp vs. 200hp. I never take dyno results at face value, but based on acceleration performance I'd expect to see about 210rwhp SAE corrected from the new car at a known-reliable Dynojet where my '17 puts down 179rwhp.

Quote:
I don't believe either in a conspiracy theory about keeping GR86 lower and to not step on 2.0 Supra or WRX toes. Toyota doesn't care if it sells a Supra or a GR86. Same about Subaru if it sells a WRX or a BRZ.
You don't have to believe in "conspiracies" to understand that how manufacturers choose to rate power might be subject to factors you are unaware of. You can't categorically say "there is NO reason for them to underrate..." when there very well could be reasons that you are just unaware of. Maybe they want to represent what it puts out on 91 octane instead of 93. Could go on with possibilities. Just because we don't know of a reason doesn't mean there is NO reason.
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Old 12-02-2021, 10:23 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikitopo View Post
Toyota doesn't care if it sells a Supra or a GR86. Same about Subaru if it sells a WRX or a BRZ.
Lol they absolutely care. More expensive car - more profit.
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Old 12-02-2021, 01:03 PM   #70
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I don't believe either in a conspiracy theory about keeping GR86 lower and to not step on 2.0 Supra or WRX toes. Toyota doesn't care if it sells a Supra or a GR86. Same about Subaru if it sells a WRX or a BRZ.
Manufacturers of anything are aware that they may have sales erosion of existing products when they introduce different models in a line up. The goal is to differentiate the products enough that this doesn't happen. You really need to understand this.
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