2022 GR86 Premium MT & AT Comparo

[Blighty]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

You still have not shown this "data" you keep speaking of.

Oh and ironically enough you just indirectly told one of the only older guys on this forum that drives an AT that is is not a "true enthusiast"!

A manual enthusiast they are not then. Perhaps I should make a correct, thanks for pointing that out.

[AJBRZ]

Any chance anyone could translate? Just trying to find out if the AT is as bad as reviews make it out to be. Really didn’t think the first gen AT was bad at all, it did what I asked it to do.

[Sport-Tech]

Originally Posted by AJBRZ

Any chance anyone could translate? Just trying to find out if the AT is as bad as reviews make it out to be. Really didn’t think the first gen AT was bad at all, it did what I asked it to do.

Lol, that review must have been done for the AARP web site, he drove it like he was reviewing a vintage VW Beetle. Didn't even use the paddles once to shift.

[OwlDance]

There is quite literally, 0 reason for the 2nd gen AT to be worse than the first gen - which repeatedly through this forum has been empircally shown to be robust and reliable and not a performance bottleneck.

The only reason people are hankering on it is because the transmission itself isn't geared sportily past the first three gears (the only critique I could raise against the AT) and to revise any AT gears would essentially mean a complete redesign - which isn't very economically feasible (it's also used in a number of other sporty cars with ATs as an option but was originally utilized in a torquier and heavier lexus that was closer to a tourer than a sport car). I'm still kind of surpried the trans in the MT is a one off specific to the 86 to begin with.

The gearing is roughly (on first gen) 36 -- 62 -- 91 -- 128/131 -- ~170/180 -- 225. The jumps are absolutely ridiculous and because of the relatively low horsepower the jump from 3--4 kills its acceleration capacity past 90mph, and the double overdrive wouldn't be a problem if the gap from 3-->4 wasn't as big as 4-->5. Changing one gear doesn't solve the issues (5 is so tall it would never be used outside of FI, the jump from 3 to 4 is so tall even increases in power wouldn't help much), at least two of them would need to be modified, which would then likely just require AIsin to remake the whole thing for very little profit.


Now that being said they also raised the FD for the 2nd gen AT from 4.1 to 3.9 and at first I thought this was moronic. However after I tested it (in assetto corsa with a modified torque curve at 200whp with the AT ratios and FD), it more or less allows the AT to more easily reach 140mph (the new top speed at 4rth where if I remember correctly, the AT pulls power past 4rth gear) without being dogged down by needing to go to 5th, and the taller gear loss in power is negligible because it pulls a lot more strongly and is almost a benefit as the torque valley edge is now several hundred RPM behind the highest possible shift points, rather than just being tapped right on the very edge of it. (Not to mention that the torque dip is smaller and even so, still is more power than 2.0.)

All in all this is to say that there's no reason the AT should be any worse off than the first gen, just that it's the cheapest option they have that serves its purpose but doesn't *excel* in any particular way, but neither does it really compromise the most important aspects of the vehicle. The only thing you lose out on really, is the ability to plow through more gears quickly.

After all, based on what I've read the Miatas and other Aisin equipped transmissions don't even let you hold gears to redline without turning off TC and tend to tank control away from you regardless. That and the Miata AT has an even taller and more ridiculous final drive despite being much less powerful (3rd gear hits 100+mph). /ramble over.

[bcj]

He was observing the local speed limits. Really got it on the boil in the 40 zone.

[Sport-Tech]

Originally Posted by bcj

He was observing the local speed limits. Really got it on the boil in the 40 zone.

Yeah, he depressed the accelerator past the 10% open position for all of three seconds. Must have been a real shock to his system .

Must be a cultural thing, no North American reviewer would have driven it that way.

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by Sport-Tech

Yeah, he depressed the accelerator past the 10% open position for all of three seconds. Must have been a real shock to his system .

Must be a cultural thing, no North American reviewer would have driven it that way.

definately a cultural thing...

Japanese roads are narrower and most of the cars there are small with low power engines. (And theres the "entry level" kei class cars with like 45hp 600cc engines).
So anything in the 200hp range would feel like a monster lol.

Where in north America 300hp is the minimum to feel...not slow lol.

Plus i dont think theres alot of open spaces to really let er rip.

[zooki]

I’m 51, and am planning on ordering a MT Premium when they become available. I’m also putting a 6 speed manual in my ‘69 Mustang. So “older” people liking the auto isn’t always true…

[rsingh]

so in the AT how do you make the most out of manual shifting? should you shift at higher rpms? I read someone reply to a youtuber complaining about slow shifts in the gr86 that he was shifting too soon?

Originally Posted by OwlDance

There is quite literally, 0 reason for the 2nd gen AT to be worse than the first gen - which repeatedly through this forum has been empircally shown to be robust and reliable and not a performance bottleneck.

The only reason people are hankering on it is because the transmission itself isn't geared sportily past the first three gears (the only critique I could raise against the AT) and to revise any AT gears would essentially mean a complete redesign - which isn't very economically feasible (it's also used in a number of other sporty cars with ATs as an option but was originally utilized in a torquier and heavier lexus that was closer to a tourer than a sport car). I'm still kind of surpried the trans in the MT is a one off specific to the 86 to begin with.

The gearing is roughly (on first gen) 36 -- 62 -- 91 -- 128/131 -- ~170/180 -- 225. The jumps are absolutely ridiculous and because of the relatively low horsepower the jump from 3--4 kills its acceleration capacity past 90mph, and the double overdrive wouldn't be a problem if the gap from 3-->4 wasn't as big as 4-->5. Changing one gear doesn't solve the issues (5 is so tall it would never be used outside of FI, the jump from 3 to 4 is so tall even increases in power wouldn't help much), at least two of them would need to be modified, which would then likely just require AIsin to remake the whole thing for very little profit.


Now that being said they also raised the FD for the 2nd gen AT from 4.1 to 3.9 and at first I thought this was moronic. However after I tested it (in assetto corsa with a modified torque curve at 200whp with the AT ratios and FD), it more or less allows the AT to more easily reach 140mph (the new top speed at 4rth where if I remember correctly, the AT pulls power past 4rth gear) without being dogged down by needing to go to 5th, and the taller gear loss in power is negligible because it pulls a lot more strongly and is almost a benefit as the torque valley edge is now several hundred RPM behind the highest possible shift points, rather than just being tapped right on the very edge of it. (Not to mention that the torque dip is smaller and even so, still is more power than 2.0.)

All in all this is to say that there's no reason the AT should be any worse off than the first gen, just that it's the cheapest option they have that serves its purpose but doesn't *excel* in any particular way, but neither does it really compromise the most important aspects of the vehicle. The only thing you lose out on really, is the ability to plow through more gears quickly.

After all, based on what I've read the Miatas and other Aisin equipped transmissions don't even let you hold gears to redline without turning off TC and tend to tank control away from you regardless. That and the Miata AT has an even taller and more ridiculous final drive despite being much less powerful (3rd gear hits 100+mph). /ramble over.

[wizee]

Originally Posted by OwlDance

I gain nothing by lying on the internet because those are my experiences and I take pride in analyzing shit in detail. You're welcome to compare with detailed anectdotes. The digital displays are a lie for shifting speeds (because you can literally watch the RPMs drop only for the engine noise to follow half an entire second later and the car buck as well in the ZF cars I've driven), and frankly so is every tachometer, just that the 86s' lies less. There was a video going around in one of the subforums recently of a supercharged 86 shifting later than the tacho suggests - something I haven't experienced on NA but lends credit to that point. While I would take an 8HP every day over a 960E, I also don't think it's this super duper performance destroying trans people make it out to be.

The nicest transmission I've managed to get some street time with is whatever aisin 8spd is in the RX350. It's smooth, likes to downshift readily and extremely quickly, compared to the AT modes of most other Zf8hp BMWs which are very reluctant and practically demand you to be lugging the engine before they start to downshift. Driving it manually didn't feel any different than the ZF8HP at cruising speeds, but like the 960E and ZF at higher RPM, you can't avoid the jarringness and delay as the transfluid does its magic working whatever the hell's inside an AT trans. The gradience in difference felt consummerate to the difference in gear lengths.

That is to say the ZF isn't a miracle AT transmission and the 960E isn't some piece of shit either, and that in conjunction with my experiences, most good quality transmissions feel and function almost identically, with only small practice(per the aisin 8spd anecdote.) Ultimately they are all the same technology and in practice are similar to each other, and that in my experience, the only major differences in feel come from the length in gearing - the 960Es stupid long gearing 6spd, vs any 8spd. And that's something you can't tune out, even if I think the 6spd could be improved.

Anyways with regards to quoted shift times, I'm 90% sure I read or heard in a video somewhere the 960E on the 86 was quoted for 250MS shift times. Which I guarantee is only for upshifts. I guarantee the ZF8HP is using the quoted 200MS shift time for their upshifts too lol. Those numbers don't really mean anything to me in practice and I think most would agree if you've driven those transmissions for any amount of time.

Different applications and generations of the ZF 8HP may differ, but I can say BMW tunes of the 8HP50 and 8HP51 used on cars like the M240i and Supra respond to paddle input and shift far more quickly than the delays I've seen in the automatic BRZ (first or second generation).

I used to have an F22 BMW M240i xDrive. Upshifts were nearly PDK quick, pretty much completing by the time I finished pulling the paddle. I'm not just talking about what's shown on the gauge cluster, you could hear the engine RPM change near instantly, and thanks to the turbo torque curve, low inertia, and great tuning, there was almost no perceptible jerk in the shift. Downshifts on my M240i were not quite PDK quick, but were still well rev matched and smooth, and would still complete in around 300 ms after pulling the paddle, or quicker when I was braking into a curve.

I'm not saying the BRZ automatic is bad given its price class, though there absolutely are torque converter autos that shift much more quickly.