Airbags ... seriously

[Godzilla35]

So before you guys start flaming, I was (and still am) in the camp of believing that air suspension, airbags, etc. were for all-show no-go people. I don't want to ruin the handling of the FRS, but I'm not a hardcore track guy either.

After returning back from SEMA and having already known about Airrex (cool dudes)... I found another company Air Lift that's based here in the U.S.

I was wondering if anyone had any REAL information as both systems are marketed as race/track-capable systems.

I want airbags because of where I live. I want to go lower to kill some wheel gap and I might want to do a nice lip kit, but I've never lowered any of my cars because I always scrape somewhere somehow on stock height anyways. I can't even visit some friends because their driveways are sketchy.

Main point, will these type of systems be okay for the track? What are the pros and cons? Is this just marketing hype? What do you guys think. I know there are a few of you on air, so if you would chime in, that'd be awesome!

Basically... I'm stuck between coilovers and probably leaving at stock height or a tad lower... or air suspension.

Airrex



Air Lift

[phenom86]

Here you can watch this video of an STi on bags during the Ultimate track car challenge.. I've seen some camaros on bags running a second faster

[Godzilla35]

Yeah watched that earlier, and actually talked to one of the main guys who helped build that car at SEMA. REALLY cool dude from Air Lift. He had the same mentality as me when building cars so I really appreciated the things he addressed (such as misconceptions of air suspensions from the 90s n such). I just wanted to know if any one had any first hand experience to weigh in with.

[blu_]

Yeah I dont buy it and never have, but if you want to hella slammed look I guess there is no other way to go. It seems like its not that bad for tracking anymore, but I just don't see how if you want the best handling setup out there that airbags are the way to go... Im sure i will be challenged on this though vOv

[xxscaxx]

I have first hand experience with airbags, but not on a track. All I know is my airrex/elevel setup on my sti handled way better than my bc coils I had previously. Granted BC's are a lower end coilover, but thats all I have to compare them to.

This forum isn't a place to really gather information on bags. Most of the attitudes towards bags are going to be negative and you will get uniformed people trying to bash a product they have no experience with.

I suggest heading over to vwvortex.com and checking out their air suspension forums, or hit up John from Bagriders, Andrew from ORT, or Brian from AirLift. Yes they will be more for bags since they all use them, but most of them have been on other suspension setups outside of air and can provide better details for what your looking for.

I can attest to the rest of your post though. I too was sick of trying to get over bumps, get in ridiculous driveways, or just driving around low in general. My "driving" height was high enough to clear all of that, while being able to lower it down for the slammed look I wanted.

As long as the car and bags are set up properly, its going to handle incredible. People often think bags have a "boat" like handling aspect to them, which is only true when you set up one line for two bags (example, running ONE switch to control both front wheels, and one for the rear. So you would flip the switch up and it would lift the whole front end up. You would have to tee off the line to do this, and when you cornered, the air would transfer from bag to bag and create that "float" feeling).

As long as you have a proper setup, I can promise you will think of bags in a completely different way.

[blu_]

I would actually agree with most of that xxscaxx. I'm still not a fan though. BUT like I said, if you want the slammed look, they are probably the only way to go and still be able to have a decent handling car when you want to track it.

[xxscaxx]

I'm sure a proper, high end coilover setup will outperform an air setup. Then again, I can't comment because I have no firsthand experience lol. Like you said though, if you want both, air is the way to go.

[blu_]

It would be interesting to see someone actually test both with equal rates comprehensibly.

[Draco-REX]

Though air bags have a certain reputation, I don't see why they would be any worse than springs when set up properly. Granted, you can't have a linear-rate airbag, but a well designed bag should work just fine in a performance application.

I think a big issues is that airbags in the past were never designed for performance. So they were likely designed with softer skins which keeps the rates low and comfortable. But it sounds like these companies are designing them for performance applications.

I'm curious about a couple things though:

1. How are the dampers handled? Are the bags just spring replacements, or is it a bag/damper combo?

2. Does the system have ride-height sensors? Would the driver be able to have pre-sets so it's easier to switch between different ride heights (i.e. City, Highway, Track)?

3. How would this system compare in price to a set of coilovers?

The thing is, if someone is just concerned with clearing speed bumps and transitions there are kits out there that can add 2" of on-demand lift to existing coilovers, giving you the best of both. So there are some hurdles a performance airbag system would have to overcome. But I'd be interested to see how these work out.

[CanibeatNoel]

I've been on Airrex for about a month and a half now and so far I've been loving it. The design of the of the shock/bag as well as seeing the Airrex FR-S from Hawaii on the track made me go forth on purchasing the kit even more so. I've been on a couple canyon runs with my 17's on and I can honestly say, this kit does NOT lack in the performance category. Also with Airrex you're able to move the strut higher and lower along with adjusting the dampening just like traditional coilovers. My next goal is to get some better tires, more suspension parts, and hit the track with a gopro.

[ImAwesome]

Originally Posted by Draco-REX

Though air bags have a certain reputation, I don't see why they would be any worse than springs when set up properly. Granted, you can't have a linear-rate airbag, but a well designed bag should work just fine in a performance application.

I think a big issues is that airbags in the past were never designed for performance. So they were likely designed with softer skins which keeps the rates low and comfortable. But it sounds like these companies are designing them for performance applications.

I'm curious about a couple things though:

1. How are the dampers handled? Are the bags just spring replacements, or is it a bag/damper combo?

2. Does the system have ride-height sensors? Would the driver be able to have pre-sets so it's easier to switch between different ride heights (i.e. City, Highway, Track)?

3. How would this system compare in price to a set of coilovers?

The thing is, if someone is just concerned with clearing speed bumps and transitions there are kits out there that can add 2" of on-demand lift to existing coilovers, giving you the best of both. So there are some hurdles a performance airbag system would have to overcome. But I'd be interested to see how these work out.

1. It is generally for these sorts of applications a bag/shock combo in one piece much like a coil over

2. Yes, all higher end electronic management kits you programmed height sensors

3. Similar to a high end coil over. $2500 will be the entry price and go up from there

[Godzilla35]

Originally Posted by xxscaxx

I have first hand experience with airbags, but not on a track. All I know is my airrex/elevel setup on my sti handled way better than my bc coils I had previously. Granted BC's are a lower end coilover, but thats all I have to compare them to.

This forum isn't a place to really gather information on bags. Most of the attitudes towards bags are going to be negative and you will get uniformed people trying to bash a product they have no experience with.

I suggest heading over to vwvortex.com and checking out their air suspension forums, or hit up John from Bagriders, Andrew from ORT, or Brian from AirLift. Yes they will be more for bags since they all use them, but most of them have been on other suspension setups outside of air and can provide better details for what your looking for.

I can attest to the rest of your post though. I too was sick of trying to get over bumps, get in ridiculous driveways, or just driving around low in general. My "driving" height was high enough to clear all of that, while being able to lower it down for the slammed look I wanted.

As long as the car and bags are set up properly, its going to handle incredible. People often think bags have a "boat" like handling aspect to them, which is only true when you set up one line for two bags (example, running ONE switch to control both front wheels, and one for the rear. So you would flip the switch up and it would lift the whole front end up. You would have to tee off the line to do this, and when you cornered, the air would transfer from bag to bag and create that "float" feeling).

As long as you have a proper setup, I can promise you will think of bags in a completely different way.

Thanks, yeah... I figured I should do that... but then I probably won't get that much FRS specific information either and I wanted to try here first.

Originally Posted by CanibeatNoel

I've been on Airrex for about a month and a half now and so far I've been loving it. The design of the of the shock/bag as well as seeing the Airrex FR-S from Hawaii on the track made me go forth on purchasing the kit even more so. I've been on a couple canyon runs with my 17's on and I can honestly say, this kit does NOT lack in the performance category. Also with Airrex you're able to move the strut higher and lower along with adjusting the dampening just like traditional coilovers. My next goal is to get some better tires, more suspension parts, and hit the track with a gopro.

Yeah, I saw your car on the drive from Scion to SEMA, but you were always busy talking to someone and I didn't want to bother you to show me a demo. I was dead tired too haha. Hopefully next meet up, I will get to see it in action and you can tell me your impressions.



Thanks guys for the responses. I really liked the interface on the Air Lift setup and the Airrex seems to be semi-track proven... so I really am up in the air about this... no pun intended... maybe.

[jadewbj]

The old bags gave them a bad rep. The new stuff from reputable makers like Air Runner are very similar to the systems in the new AMG cars.



The kit that I got for my Y34 was amazing built. They had full on brand new struts with dampening. The kit handled fantastically.

The new stuff is far from the old style bags.

[crildz]

Originally Posted by Godzilla35

So before you guys start flaming, I was (and still am) in the camp of believing that air suspension, airbags, etc. were for all-show no-go people. I don't want to ruin the handling of the FRS, but I'm not a hardcore track guy either.

After returning back from SEMA and having already known about Airrex (cool dudes)... I found another company Air Lift that's based here in the U.S.

I was wondering if anyone had any REAL information as both systems are marketed as race/track-capable systems.

I want airbags because of where I live. I want to go lower to kill some wheel gap and I might want to do a nice lip kit, but I've never lowered any of my cars because I always scrape somewhere somehow on stock height anyways. I can't even visit some friends because their driveways are sketchy.

Main point, will these type of systems be okay for the track? What are the pros and cons? Is this just marketing hype? What do you guys think. I know there are a few of you on air, so if you would chime in, that'd be awesome!

Basically... I'm stuck between coilovers and probably leaving at stock height or a tad lower... or air suspension.

Airrex



Air Lift

I know a thing or two about air management. Airlift management is ok if you want cheap management, but if you want the best bang for your buck and the easiest operation and best features you should go with accuair management.I currently am running Accuair E-level (with I level) on air lift bags on my mkvi GTI. The E-level uses four sensors placed on the corners of the car to calculate how much pressure is required to make all four corners stay at the programed height. Lets say your friend gets in the car or you throw groceries in the back, the sensors will calculate how many PSI should be added to bump it back up to that same height. Give it 30 seconds and it will automatically adjust. Another cool feature is the start up and go, so you air your car out for the night and you go to leave in the morning. Simple, you just turn the car on and it automatically airs up.

As far as bags, airlift makes a good set up but obviously fails in comparison to something as tested as a airrex set up. Airrex bags are basically proven on their race car. While air runner is pretty good as well i would go with airrex IMO.

As far as cost is concerned you would be looking right around $4000 for a very solid setup, you could get a switchspeed setup for around the $3500 range but for the features of E-level and the ease of use i would highly recommend it.