|
GR86 General Topics (2nd Gen 2022+ Toyota 86) General topics for the GR86 second-gen 86 |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
03-03-2023, 04:15 PM | #1 |
Join Date: Apr 2021
Drives: BRZ
Location: Virginia
Posts: 568
Thanks: 89
Thanked 711 Times in 325 Posts
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Killer B Motorsport 2022+ FA24 BRZ/GR86 Oil Retention Baffle Development
Killer B Motorsport 2022+ FA24 BRZ/GR86 Oil Retention Baffle
Goal: Improve Oil Control in the Sump, to reduce the probability of oil starvation. FA24 Sump Design: The FA24’s engine design uses a 2-piece sump design. The lower piece is made from stamped steel, has no baffle, and holds less than half of the engine’s oil capacity. The upper piece is made from cast aluminum, has oil drain-back accommodations for the rear of each head, a flat plate baffle near the crankshaft to reduce aeration and reduce crankshaft induced turbulence that can impact PCV, and holds most of the oil. The drain backs are baffled, unlike previous Subaru engines that have head drains that were open to the sump. This is a good step forward in improving oil control; oil surge back-feeding into the heads during cornering. The engine’s Timing Cover is attached to the front of the engine and upper sump. It is a large piece with a lot of open area. There are some PCV provisions, and there are no baffles or other features to control the oil. There is a large opening from upper sump into the timing cover. The argument could be made that the timing cover is also part of the ‘sump’ because any amount of oil above the minimum level dipstick dot, is also held in the timing cover. Hypothesis: In motion, oil in the sump is dynamic. Oil is flowing off the crankshaft, from the drains in each head, and moves around via slosh or surge as acceleration and lateral forces change. The lower sump has a shallow wedge shape at the front. This shape makes it very easy for oil to ramp forward and upward into the upper sump and into the timing cover cavity. Oil from the heads drain from the bottom of each head into the upper sump, through some ‘baffle’ features. ‘Baffle’ features because these are not specific baffle components but cast in design features that create direction changes in the same manner as a baffle. While not perfect, this is a decent advance from previous Subaru engines where the head drains were unobstructed from oil slosh causing backflow into the heads. The timing cover is a large open space that contains the cam timing components, sprockets, and chain. The sides of the timing cover have low spots that trap oil. Under high RPM the chain can rope oil causing more oil to be drawn from the sump area as well. Theory of Operation: Any slow-down caused by throttle lift or braking causes a significant amount of oil to surge into the timing cover reducing oil level in the sump. With a cornering motion following, the oil in the timing cover then moves into the side of the timing cover and will stay there until the end of the corner and acceleration resumes. The Killer B Motorsport Oil Retention Baffle restrict oil from freely flowing into the timing cover, thereby increasing the level available in the sump. A one-way flap valve allows any oil that does flow into the timing, easily able to flow back into the sump as acceleration resumes. Questions, comments, and feedback welcomed. |
The Following 11 Users Say Thank You to KillerBMotorsport For This Useful Post: |
03-03-2023, 05:00 PM | #2 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2022
Drives: 2023 Track bRed GR86 Premium
Location: WI
Posts: 1
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
So, when can I buy? Pulling my pan soon, would love to toss this in.
|
The Following User Says Thank You to pandafabrications For This Useful Post: | mike2100 (03-24-2023) |
03-03-2023, 05:32 PM | #3 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2022
Drives: Mini Cooper S
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 111
Thanks: 50
Thanked 35 Times in 22 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
I've been waiting to pull my pan until all this stuff has been sorted since I don't want to do it more than once.
What evidence/data do you have to support your theories and solution? (I know we've seen in the other thread the telemetry of pressure dropping in right hand "over crest" scenarios) |
03-04-2023, 09:11 AM | #4 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2023
Drives: 23 GR86 Halo PMT
Location: New England
Posts: 2
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Looking forward to seeing this come to fruition, will 100% be a customer when this is released.
|
03-04-2023, 11:35 AM | #5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Drives: 22 BRZ (Previously 13 FR-S)
Location: USA
Posts: 5,797
Thanks: 2,176
Thanked 4,243 Times in 2,221 Posts
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
|
Thanks for the detailed pictures and analysis! Would love to see the results if any testing/validation has been done on this product (internally or 3rd party).
__________________
"Never run out of real estate, traction, and ideas at the same time."
2022 BRZ Build 2013 FR-S Build |
03-04-2023, 02:27 PM | #6 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2018
Drives: Crapcan
Location: Oregon
Posts: 11,358
Thanks: 18,534
Thanked 16,600 Times in 7,518 Posts
Mentioned: 110 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
__________________
"Experience is the hardest kind of teacher. It gives you the test first and the lesson afterward." -Oscar Wilde.
|
|
03-04-2023, 04:57 PM | #7 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Drives: '23 GR86, '17 BRZ
Location: Colorado
Posts: 80
Thanks: 2
Thanked 54 Times in 31 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Super cool. Definitely very interested to see testing and data from this.
Question because I'm curious... why would that opening into the timing cover be present / large / unbaffled to begin with? IE... could there be any unintended consequences to blocking that off? |
The Following User Says Thank You to gnarjunkie For This Useful Post: | OkieSnuffBox (03-12-2023) |
03-04-2023, 06:23 PM | #8 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2022
Drives: GR86
Location: US
Posts: 29
Thanks: 19
Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Any idea what the expected service life is of those rubber(?) trap doors? I'd prefer a solution that is zero long term maintenance even if the performance isn't as good.
Either way this is exciting and can't wait to learn more |
03-05-2023, 08:30 AM | #9 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Drives: Too fast
Location: Canada
Posts: 134
Thanks: 202
Thanked 93 Times in 53 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
without before and after track oil pressure log, there is no product
|
03-05-2023, 09:57 AM | #10 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2018
Drives: 2013 frs base
Location: central Virginia
Posts: 1,284
Thanks: 2,158
Thanked 1,235 Times in 589 Posts
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Just curious, with an engine on a stand, could you simulate braking and lateral G's by tipping the engine up and forward a few degrees? Then, with a borescope, look in the timing cover, valve cover, and/or pan to see where the oil is going and how long it takes for it to flow back to the pan once you re-level the engine.
|
03-05-2023, 09:01 PM | #11 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Drives: FRS
Location: tex
Posts: 7
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
I am wondering the same thing myself
|
03-06-2023, 08:51 AM | #12 | |||
Join Date: Apr 2021
Drives: BRZ
Location: Virginia
Posts: 568
Thanks: 89
Thanked 711 Times in 325 Posts
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Thank you for the support! |
|||
03-06-2023, 09:00 AM | #13 | |
Join Date: Apr 2021
Drives: BRZ
Location: Virginia
Posts: 568
Thanks: 89
Thanked 711 Times in 325 Posts
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
Thanks! We think so too! Great question, and we've pondered it too. The baffle doesn't block it 100%, it's not a perfect seal. Oil can still get in there, the level will still read correctly, but the effects from surge and slosh into that area will be significantly reduced. |
|
03-06-2023, 09:17 AM | #14 | |||
Join Date: Apr 2021
Drives: BRZ
Location: Virginia
Posts: 568
Thanks: 89
Thanked 711 Times in 325 Posts
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
Another thing to note, is that this style flapper valve (originally designed and used by BMW) was made for installation on vertical baffles. Never in a horizontal application. The aftermarket got a hold of it and right or wrong, put them on everything. If you look at horizontal installs, they sag open. Not only that, but because they sag open and are installed incorrectly on a horizontal surface, the heat causes them to take a set, in the open position. This can happen after only a couple of heat cycles, rendering the flap valves functionally useless. When used correctly on a vertical surface, they only open 1-2mm. Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to KillerBMotorsport For This Useful Post: |
|
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
2022+ BRZ/GR86 FA24 Oil Pan Baffle - Ansix Auto | Ansix Auto | Engine, Exhaust, Bolt-Ons | 0 | 11-18-2022 06:15 PM |
Killer B Motorsport 2022 BRZ Dyno Plot with Oil Pressure and Temp | KillerBMotorsport | BRZ Second-Gen (2022+) -- General Topics | 50 | 10-29-2022 08:36 AM |
High Flow Oil Pickup by Killer B Motorsport | KillerBMotorsport | Engine, Exhaust, Bolt-Ons | 4 | 04-26-2022 10:51 AM |
FS: NEW Bluemoon Oil Baffle & Killer-B pick up tube. | FRSH86 | Engine, Exhaust, Bolt-Ons | 2 | 04-20-2020 11:49 AM |
Compatibility: Moroso Baffle and Killer Bee Oil sump | Nightflo | Engine, Exhaust, Transmission | 3 | 04-27-2019 10:40 PM |