Supercharger Comparison: Innovate, Jackson, Kraftwerks, Vortech *Updated March 9 2014

[MidnightRunner]

Originally Posted by shaunsweeney

Wrong wording sorry about that. What I meant to say is for a primarily DD car, I generally prefer a power window in the midrange.

Have you considered the full throttle ESC? Not really my cup of tea, but it hits some pretty wicked tq down low.

First dyno was stock.
Second dyno (blue and green line?) was with downpipe, catback exhaust and 85. @fenton has all the details.





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[shaunsweeney]

Mike I see what you mean. I would like to see what they would all do on a rolling road dyno with normal driving, but that will never happen. Doesn't make much sense financially. That's what test rides are for and luckily my local group will have one of each of the SCs this spring!


The ESC doesn't really interest me at this time.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by shaunsweeney

Mike I see what you mean. I would like to see what they would all do on a rolling road dyno with normal driving, but that will never happen. Doesn't make much sense financially. That's what test rides are for and luckily my local group will have one of each of the SCs this spring!


The ESC doesn't really interest me at this time.

This is a test I can arrange for, but it's not cheap.

It's something that I've done while tuning my own S2000; I highly value partial throttle response and consistency.

[Robftss]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Remember, graphs only reflect WOT power, not 60% throttle power, or 30% throttle power. I'm confident all of these kits are already making more power than WOT stock at 30% throttle boosted; even at idle, all the superchargers are making positive pressure.

I think positive pressure up to the throttle body during low throttle position.
I think the PD blower will have the bypass open.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Robftss

I think positive pressure up to the throttle body during low throttle position.
I think the PD blower will have the bypass open.

All of them do...

[OrbitalEllipses]

I kinda miss PTFB. Mid-corner, all of a sudden fucking lose it, lol!

[Robftss]

Originally Posted by normancw

@CSG Mike
@Robftss

It would be great if someone with the full throttle ESC could volunteer for Mike's dyno day. Even better if Mike could try the full throttle ESC on a track - I would be really interested if it's suitable.

On my local track, I'm only at WOT for about 50 seconds over a 160 second lap. The stretches of WOT would only last 5-15 seconds, so I think the intervals between WOT would be enough to recharge the batteries.

What I'm more worried about is the on/off nature of the boost. I think I only transition to WOT when I'm going straight. In the ESC thread, there's a video of someone lapping with the ESC, but it was his first time lapping.

50/160....You're not driving hard enough.

Can I equal the price point ?

[Xero-Limit]

Nice work putting this together.

I think once you put in e85, the gap narrows significantly between innovate/sprintex and the others. Due to the cooling effect of e85, you can get tons of HP without an intercooler. As much as the IC is a help, a lamniova water to air vs a true air to air large IC as in the rotrex based kits; just doesn't compare. So I'd expect less of a difference on e85 with the SC kits.

But regardless, the rotrex kits will no doubt make great top-end power, and romp on the twin screw on pump gas. When it comes down to it, given a proper tune, any of the kits will be limited by driveline capacity on the track, octane on the street. Power does not seem to be an issue on this motor.

[Sellout]

Take off your foil hat buddy, there's no conspiracy, there's just a lack of Innovate dynos. Robftss posted a "CARB plot" without linking a source (post 60 of this thread). It shows -33 HP peak HP to the one I used. If that's true, then the one I used is definitely not CARB. I slogged through every page of that Innovate owner's thread and found the best one I could. I would be delighted for anyone to provide me with a verified intercooled dynojet plot using a custom tune on pump gas.

Both innovate kits are carb approved. The 244whp dyno you thought was a custom tune is actually the intercooled kit on the CARB tune. But my comments weren't directed at you. You made a fine comparison with what info you had available. The CSG driver turned Jackson Racing salesman knowingly used your info to show the non intercooled twin screw vs the JR CARB tune in the same post where he used the CARB intercooled twin screw dyno to compare with the rotrex kits at the ~275whp level, and this isn't the first time.

Well that's just not true. The Innovate CARB tune posted by Robftss makes 211 RWHP peak and the Jackson makes 243 RWHP. Even if you factor in the 7HP difference in the stock plots they show, that's still a 25HP difference.

You're right. I tend to forget the non intercooled innovate when I'm talking about the power capability of these kits. I should have said all the intercooled kits on canned tunes make ~245rwhp, which would be true.

[OmarGC]

Originally Posted by Sellout

Both innovate kits are carb approved. The 244whp dyno you thought was a custom tune is actually the intercooled kit on the CARB tune. But my comments weren't directed at you. You made a fine comparison with what info you had available. The CSG driver turned Jackson Racing salesman knowingly used your info to show the non intercooled twin screw vs the JR CARB tune in the same post where he used the CARB intercooled twin screw dyno to compare with the rotrex kits at the ~275whp level, and this isn't the first time.



You're right. I tend to forget the non intercooled innovate when I'm talking about the power capability of these kits. I should have said all the intercooled kits on canned tunes make ~245rwhp, which would be true.

+1000

And I'm not even a fan of the innovate kit... And definitely a lot of biased towards the JR kit(OP). Still don't get the hype of the JR kit, esp over a kit that's so similar(KW). JR kit looks like it was put together using in someone's garage as a DIY lol. Whatever works though.

[JouMaSeHoes]

Originally Posted by normancw

Too many turns (20 over 5km), LOL! Your current price point is great, no need to change!

Here's a few minutes of video:

Here's a track map:

Wow! Awesome track, I wish we had something like that over here in deepest, darkest Africa!

[CSG David]

Dang some tough love.

I have worked on propulsion systems in the aviation industry for some time so this discussion is informative and entertaining. I love numbers and graphs (nerd) so I really appreciate @tendogy posting up these graphs to provide a method of how he's searching for a solution based on a creative approach. Looking forward to reading more on everyone's views on their personal favorites.

As for everyone, please continue to provide your opinions and arguments for your favorite kits. It's good discussion and good to know where everybody is coming from. Hopefully this thread can remain as an informative thread with lots of good data.

[AG3NT_5CARFAC3]

Vortech for me! Getting installed around April time

Originally Posted by sklimo

If you were closer I would jump all over it.

its going to be interesting if we dyno/race our cars...on the track, of course lol

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Here's my offer.

If we can get the appropriate volunteers, I will arrange for heavily discounted dyno time. Maybe we'll turn it into a meet too.

All cars need to show up on the same day, and will go on the same dyno, with everyone present to verify there's no monkey business.

"off the shelf" cars with 2 cats
- CARB Innovate intercooled
- CARB Innovate non-intercooled
- CARB Jackson Racing
- CARB Vortech V2

"Maxed out" cars (91 octane, any non-catted header, any non-catted front pipe)
- Innovate Intercooled, any pulley
- Jackson Racing, any pulley
- Kraftwerks, any pulley
- Vortech, any pulley

"Maxed out" cars (100+ octane or E85)
- Innovate Intercooled, any pulley
- Jackson Racing, any pulley
- Kraftwerks, any pulley
- Vortech, any pulley


Lets make it happen guys.

Let me expand on this.

With the cars I've dynoed, this is my procedure:

I do individual dynos, 1 pull at a time, until the readings stabilize. The car is fully cooled down between runs, hood open, with multiple fans blowing everywhere. This is the "baseline".

Then I start doing back to back pulls, hood closed, and with all fans blowing into the front bumper opening. This is to simulate heat soak. I keep doing pulls until either the coolant temp gets too high, the oil temp gets too high, or the power readings stabilize.

So far, with all of the cars dynoed, besides the CSG car, I do NOT have the owners' permissions to post the heat soak dynos at the point where the car is overheating or the power readings stabilized in a heat soaked condition.

My priority is sustained power. What can the car do if you're doing back to back freeway pulls? What can the car do if you're WOT for 15 minutes straight on the track? How high do the intake temps get on back to back pulls? How about exhaust gas temperature? When will the FMIC or heat exchanger get overwhelmed? Can the power be sustained?