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Old 09-06-2020, 06:25 PM   #15
Ohio Enthusiast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mav1178 View Post
Keep in mind that you're supposed to tighten the lugs to around 80-90 ft-lb of torque
Twins call for 89 ft-lb, which is pretty low torque for your typical 1/2" drive wrench or tire iron. I guess people think that since the lug nuts hold the wheels they need to be extra tight, thus easily over torquing them.
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Old 09-06-2020, 06:54 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast View Post
Twins call for 89 ft-lb, which is pretty low torque for your typical 1/2" drive wrench or tire iron. I guess people think that since the lug nuts hold the wheels they need to be extra tight, thus easily over torquing them.
I'm surprised there are people who don't use a torque wrench. Who does'nt love a torque wrench?
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Old 09-06-2020, 10:17 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by PetrolioBenzina View Post
I'm surprised there are people who don't use a torque wrench. Who does'nt love a torque wrench?
Torque wrenches are annoying, it's like when your electric toothbrush cuts back and vibrates because you're pressing too hard.

I'm surprised shops that do thousands of tire changes using only an impact gun with no torque sticks never see failures, yet enthusiasts who are being careful break shit all the time. My first job ever was at a shop, just doing basic maintenance. Nobody had torque wrenches or nice tools- but no customers ever came back complaining.
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Old 09-06-2020, 10:36 PM   #18
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Imho debris gums up the threads and it's easy to get little metal shavings on the threads if you're not super careful putting the wheel on, any little slide creates debris.

I put arp studs on and have changed my wheels more than I did with the stock studs without issue. Lesson learned.
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Old 09-07-2020, 01:48 AM   #19
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The torque wrench...

has anyone noticed that shops show the customer the use of a torque wrench on the customer's wheels as a last step...AFTER the lug nuts have been spun on tight with a 1/2 inch drive impact wrench ?

Sure the torque wrench clicks...as those lug nuts are already torqued way beyond the proper value.

It's all for show.

The only way to get the proper torque at home is to tighten the nuts by hand, then do the final torque by hand, using the torque wrench.

The average half inch drive impact wrench, pneumatic or battery powered, would over torque those lug nuts every time.
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Old 09-07-2020, 02:03 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by ToySub1946 View Post
The only way to get the proper torque at home is to tighten the nuts by hand, then do the final torque by hand, using the torque wrench.

The average half inch drive impact wrench, pneumatic or battery powered, would over torque those lug nuts every time.
only if you think of an impact gun as an on/off switch.

I use impact gun to get the lugs on, but I only do it after I hand thread it on. If you have a variable speed impact driver you can use it to speed up the process without overtorquing it.
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Old 09-07-2020, 03:33 AM   #21
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I suspect any higher incidence of problems with the lugs and studs probably results from this group swapping wheels and tires more often than your average Camry. Consider that if you go two years between taking the wheels off your Camry but have your FRS wheels off every six months, you have quadrupled your opportunities to damage the studs. Some of you are swapping tires every weekend.

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Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast View Post
I'll say I agree with the "user error" thing, but since most cars are fine with the abuse of cross threading and impact torquing, it does cast the Twins' wheel studs in a bad light.
Most cars are not fine with cross threading and impact torquing. Go hang out with Jeep guys and see how many of those idiots break studs or end up destroying rims trying to remove seized lug nuts.



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Originally Posted by PetrolioBenzina View Post
I'm surprised there are people who don't use a torque wrench. Who does'nt love a torque wrench?
Poor people. Cheap people. Ignorant people who can't figure out how it works. Folks who drastically overestimate their ability to guess the right torque by feel (especially Jeep people). Stupid people who break it because it's the biggest wrench they have and they don't have a cheater bar.

Lots of people.

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Originally Posted by DarkPira7e View Post
I'm surprised shops that do thousands of tire changes using only an impact gun with no torque sticks never see failures, yet enthusiasts who are being careful break shit all the time.
Many shops use regulated impact wrenches that don't over torque the lugs.

And some do see failures. I know because a shop failed one of mine right off onto the floor.

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Originally Posted by DarkPira7e View Post
Nobody had torque wrenches or nice tools- but no customers ever came back complaining.
Think for a minute about what you said.

For the overwhelming majority of cars, removing lug nuts is not a frequent occurrence. 99.99% of the customers are not going to realize you fucked up their wheels until they're stuck in a dark parking lot with a flat 18 months later and either can't get the lug to break loose or end up breaking a stud trying. Even then, they may not realize it was your overzealous tightening that caused it.

And even if they do realize it, 1) it's been 18 months, so how do they prove you were at fault, and 2)why the hell would they take it back to the guys who fucked it up to have them fuck it up again?

OF COURSE you're not going to have customers coming back in to complain. The actual consequence is almost completely separated from the cause. It's the perfect job for avoiding complaints about incompetence.
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Old 09-07-2020, 06:40 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by extrashaky View Post
Think for a minute about what you said.

For the overwhelming majority of cars, removing lug nuts is not a frequent occurrence. 99.99% of the customers are not going to realize you fucked up their wheels until they're stuck in a dark parking lot with a flat 18 months later and either can't get the lug to break loose or end up breaking a stud trying. Even then, they may not realize it was your overzealous tightening that caused it.

And even if they do realize it, 1) it's been 18 months, so how do they prove you were at fault, and 2)why the hell would they take it back to the guys who fucked it up to have them fuck it up again?

OF COURSE you're not going to have customers coming back in to complain. The actual consequence is almost completely separated from the cause. It's the perfect job for avoiding complaints about incompetence.
Fair enough! Generally, we put on and removed most of their wheels ( very small town, we didn't even have a police department) every season so most of our customers were coming to us for everything. But I do agree, if there were other options, they would probably seek them out if they took issue with what we were doing. I still know that with my personal vehicle, I zip them on/off multiple times a year and never have a problem using just the tire iron to get them off
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Old 09-07-2020, 03:12 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mav1178 View Post
All OEM studs are weak. They're cast iron...

Here's a list of studs I've broken by hand, via breaker bar:

OE Nissan
OE Toyota
OE Subaru
Nismo
ARP

The question of how it breaks/shears is a question of what caused you to put so much torque on it that it breaks. Keep in mind that you're supposed to tighten the lugs to around 80-90 ft-lb of torque, so if it stops moving and you're still applying torque, it will break. 80-90 isn't a lot of force if you're doing it right, especially if you are using a longer breaker bar or torque wrench.
They are not cast iron they are heat treated hardened steel.
The majority of broken studs I have seen had little to do with over torque. People side load them when putting them on and off and snap them. They have very poor side stress resistance due to the hardening.
Easy enough to tell since ones that are over torqued will twist off flush with the hub since that is where the stress is. Ones that snap off at or outside of the rim were side loaded.
It is very easy to do without even realizing even by hand. I would be willing to bet that is what happens to most of the guys that have it happen frequently even if they want to blame everything and everybody else.
Over torqued ones are more likely to strip or stretch threads than to just snap off.
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Old 09-07-2020, 05:49 PM   #24
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Short answer: Just going with a premium reputable brand (I'm looking at Muteki, McGard, Gorilla, and others right now) *might* be sufficient to avoid the nut/stud galling/stripping problem. Maybe... It's pretty inexpensive and of course super-easy installation, so I say give it a shot!
I wonder if using good lug nuts is the answer.

Hope I'm not jinxing myself but I've had no problems with the OEM studs. They're 8 years old now and I've taken my wheels off dozens of times because of track use/maintenance. One thing I did early on was replace the OEM lugs nuts with Gorilla closed end ones. Also used a torque wrench and hand tools. So far so good.
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Old 09-09-2020, 07:42 PM   #25
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People are just soap boxing the obvious and not reading anything.

I and several others have stated they
HAND THREAD the lug nuts,
and then HAND TORQUE WRENCH to 89 lbs,
and DO NOT use an impact wrench,
yet have still had a seized stud.

So, it's not user error.

Anyone have a URL to an OEM looking high quality lug nut ?


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Originally Posted by 86MLR View Post
User error.

I had my wheels on and off more times than I care to remember.

Some points from an old guy:
1. Use a torque wrench (if you don't own a couple of torque wrenches your not doing it right)
2. Always wind the nut in by hand, never start with the impact driver, ugga dugga will kill em quick if the thread hasn't been started correctly.
3. I personally use the tiniest dab of anti-seize (50% of the internet will explode from this statement)
4. Always use closed nuts, open ended nuts will let contamination into the threads.
5. Cheap aluminium nuts are rubbish, use steel, or, if you need bling, Ti or Chromium-molybdenium steel like project Mu with floating seats.

Or, break them because monkey fisted, and then blame the product.

Or, just say they are rubbish in order to justify the purchase of some "brand name" studs in order to gain more "Bro" points to impress all the teenage boys.......
Everyone already knows this obvious stuff.

If you've removed your wheels constantly, that is probably the reason you never got a seized lug.

My wheels were not removed for 3 years and I had a seized lug.
Not user error.

I still have OEM lug nuts.
What did you replace your lug nuts with?

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Originally Posted by Decep View Post
There's definitely something about Subaru's tin foil lugs..
I have some McGard lugs and am gonna change to ARP studs soon.
Can you post a link to McGard lugs you got?

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Originally Posted by ToySub1946 View Post
>Lug nut tin caps from OEM lugnuts popped off on three of mine while torquing them during wheel rotation.< I previously had no idea the these lug nuts are a cheapo two piece design.

I'd like to replace these lug nuts with something which looks stock, yet is a better quality product.
+1.
I had no idea OEM lugs are 2-piece crap with a vanity cap. They are going in the trash. I had another car where I had to hammer a smaller socket over the broken lug cap to get it off. Replaced every lug with McGard. Want to do the same with BRZ.

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Originally Posted by ZDan View Post
Couldn't source an M12x1.25 tap for external threads, but borrowed a "clean-up" nut from local shop .
https://www.amazon.com/Lang-Tools-25...dp/B000XJ48V0/
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Old 09-09-2020, 10:05 PM   #26
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https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1 To be installed once i get the ARP studs installed.
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Old 09-09-2020, 10:27 PM   #27
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I used OEM nuts on my 86 for years, I did get some Project Mu nuts but only because I got them really cheap.

And then I binned it.....coincidence.....??????....LOL
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Old 09-09-2020, 10:31 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daniloneil8 View Post
If you've removed your wheels constantly, that is probably the reason you never got a seized lug.

My wheels were not removed for 3 years and I had a seized lug.
That's interesting - perhaps the lug nuts seize to the studs due to corrosion? If people break studs only when unscrewing the nuts, this might cause it (as stated before, over torquing should lead to stretched studs or stripped threads, not seizure).
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