CNET on 86: More power would ruin it

[ST185RC]

Originally Posted by Calvin27

I rekon the real question is how can the twins reinvent themselves and provide a broader offering? If you take a page from the Porsche playbook,it's strip it out and add a few performance parts. I rekon there is a case for a more stripped out 86, removing about 150lbs (basic stereo, back seats gone and maybe some otehr lightweight stuff) and possibly adding bigger/better brakes and maybe a factory oil cooler. Slap that as a 'trd special with some horsepower badges and we got a seller. Adding power is not as simple as the DIY garage adding a blower for an OEM manufacturer. I rekon it is not so much about ruining the car, but moreso that it takes a lot more to design it well. Maybe in the next referesh we will see more power. Does anyone know the specifics of the Toyobaru agreement wrt when it expires, or power etc?

They did that already, the north american market simply doesn't care about this car enough to have it cater to truly niche buyers.

They had a stripped GT86 with no AC or stereo and with unpainted bumpers, they have a TRD version with all the bells and whistles, they had release series in North America, they have 10 series.

They already refreshed the 86 with a whopping 5 more horsepower. Simply put, Toyota wants to sell to masses who will use this car for daily driving and some fun. They will not make any money selling niche versions here.

Why would someone pay porsche prices for a optioned out toyota when they can get a base porsche cayman with a badge? which one sounds better? I own a porsche vs I own a toyota?

[Calvin27]

Originally Posted by ST185RC

They did that already, the north american market simply doesn't care about this car enough to have it cater to truly niche buyers.

They had a stripped GT86 with no AC or stereo and with unpainted bumpers, they have a TRD version with all the bells and whistles, they had release series in North America, they have 10 series.

They already refreshed the 86 with a whopping 5 more horsepower. Simply put, Toyota wants to sell to masses who will use this car for daily driving and some fun. They will not make any money selling niche versions here.

Why would someone pay porsche prices for a optioned out toyota when they can get a base porsche cayman with a badge? which one sounds better? I own a porsche vs I own a toyota?

Didn't realise they had a stripped version in USA. Does it come with track upgrades like brakes and oil cooler? How much did this thing weigh?

Also, I wasn't suggesting porsche prices. I was just saying porsche seems to have some success doing niche models that actually have less and selling them as weight savings.

I do agree with you to some extent though, it's easier to make money selling to the masses with bolts ons to the car at an inflated price than do the opposite stripping it.

[bcj]

Never got to the US. I think they were only Japan, Australia and maybe the mid-east.
Scion only had the single model with a couple of swanky ones thrown in.

[norcalpb]

This was the only "stripped" model that I can think of was the RC trim 86.





And then the BRZ RA

[Calvin27]

Originally Posted by bcj

Never got to the US. I think they were only Japan, Australia and maybe the mid-east.
Scion only had the single model with a couple of swanky ones thrown in.

The Aus TRD was more or less a sticker job. And it sold for about $AU50k vs $30k for the gt.

It was a sad sellout unfortunately. Basically all cosmetic and with a huge premium. For that much more money I'd expect at least better wheels, brake upgrade and possibly suspension.

[ST185RC]

Originally Posted by Calvin27

Didn't realise they had a stripped version in USA. Does it come with track upgrades like brakes and oil cooler? How much did this thing weigh?

Also, I wasn't suggesting porsche prices. I was just saying porsche seems to have some success doing niche models that actually have less and selling them as weight savings.

I do agree with you to some extent though, it's easier to make money selling to the masses with bolts ons to the car at an inflated price than do the opposite stripping it.

Someone already posted the stripped out 86. The US market for a niche car is just too small to justify offering it. why would anyone buy one here that doesn't have a painted bumper? it always comes down to "But I can get this for the same price and it'd have a painted bumper and better equipment overall (Mustang)"

Porsche can do the niche selling because they can. Because they have a prestige that simply no toyota can do save for the really expensive LFA.

Toyotas are simply not a collectible brand where as a Porsche, would be. Do you not see that typically, the niche model porsches like the Cayman GT4 is in such high demand that people BID it up like no tomorrow? Or a GT3RS?

The only thing the 50K TRD edition GT86 does to it is that it slows down the depreciation. These cars are not made to be special, they're made to make you FEEL special. That is all.

There is no money in toyota making something even more niche than a niche car already is.

Like I said, when you add on a BBK from the factory it's 3K, when you add on an oil cooler it's probably going to end up 1K at the dealer. A la carte may turn out to be more expensive than an optioned out TRD model which already costs about 50K.

Choice costs money. Unless you are willing pony up some porsche money, your FRS will still remain slow and handles marginally better.

You want fast? Go FI or go something else entirely. Making slow cars fast is never a cheap or financially smart thing to do.

[ST185RC]

Also, comparing porsche to Toyota is like comparing Rolex to Seiko. They both tell time, but one's worth just a little more.

Why? Brand and prestige. One's a collectible and the other is an everyday watch made for the average working joe.

[Lantana frs]

What constitutes fast? How fast can I go on a public road before I end up in court or jail? My car reaches 90 mph on an entrance ramp easily. Its a fun car

[Mr.Impreza]

Originally Posted by Lantana frs

What constitutes fast? How fast can I go on a public road before I end up in court or jail? My car reaches 90 mph on an entrance ramp easily. Its a fun car

Exactly.

It's one of the reasons why I avoid extremely fast cars like GTR R35's.

But anyways...lets continue complaining.

Man my Honda Fit is slow...like 100hp!
It needs 300 more hps....man...why didn't Honda make it have 400hp? I don't understand? Like make it 400hp and keep the price the same...it makes sense right?

Oh and I wan the interior to be at least equivalent to Lexus or else I'll make threads on forums complaining that the car is not high end enough for me.

[Lantana frs]

Lets not forget to start a bitch thread for every little noise it makes also. Lol

[Spartarus]

Originally Posted by OldSkoolToys

There should be a stickied, closed thread about why it's improper to compare the twins to an s2000. Even used market makes no sense as most twins you can buy still carry a factory warranty, and the car is newer.

The AP1s had a base MSRP of $32,300 (2001), or roughly $42,500 in 2013 money.

The '13 FR-S had an MSRP of $25,600...That's $16,900, or basically a brand new base corolla, in price difference.

Spare everyone that comparison. The S2000 was in a different price bracket from the get go. Less than 5 years from its demise Toyota/Subaru released a car that's damned close in real world performance, with a hardtop, for significantly less money.

I wasn't making a comparison of the cars at all. It was a demonstration that a small RWD car of nearly identical weight is not "ruined" by having extra horsepower. Quite the opposite, in fact. That was a direct refutation of the article in question, and therefore relevant and on-topic. It just so happened that the convenient example was a Honda S2000... It's happenstance that they both share revvy, NA, 2-liter engines, close-ratio 6-speeds, and a helical LSD... And many other things that make them directly comparable.

They're both good cars. They share many characteristics. There are many characteristics they don't share, which distinguish them from one another. That said, a comparison is absolutely not improper. I completely disagree with you there, and I'm prepared to defend the point. Maybe that should be the closed, stickied thread.. That, however, is an argument for another time, and another thread.

[Mim]

Originally Posted by bcj

Never got to the US. I think they were only Japan, Australia and maybe the mid-east.
Scion only had the single model with a couple of swanky ones thrown in.

Believe the stripper (lol) only made it out in Japan. At least in AU we never saw it and also think it would rarely have been purchased as it only really appeals to the track day crowd and who does that with a brand new car anyway?

[FR-Sky]

I think we have a weight reduction thread....
by taking backseat, spare tires and components in the trunk already give our car about 50lbs reduction....

[OldSkoolToys]

Originally Posted by Spartarus

I wasn't making a comparison of the cars at all. It was a demonstration that a small RWD car of nearly identical weight is not "ruined" by having extra horsepower. Quite the opposite, in fact. That was a direct refutation of the article in question, and therefore relevant and on-topic. It just so happened that the convenient example was a Honda S2000... It's happenstance that they both share revvy, NA, 2-liter engines, close-ratio 6-speeds, and a helical LSD... And many other things that make them directly comparable.

How is using the S2000 as an example of more hp compared to the twins (you are using the twins as the baseline), not a comparison? That is exactly what it is.

And buyers paid for that extra hp. Some people forget that the price point is part of what makes the car good, not only its performance. Suffice to say that if the twins were to make 25% more power from the factory, covered under warranty, they would probably -start- in the low $30k range.

And a comparison between cars in completely different price points is basically improper; if not definitely moot. Especially when one is a 2 seat roadster, and the other is a 2+2 hardtop.

This S2000 and 350z/370z comparison malarkey has been going on since 2009. If you had been around as long as that you'd be as tired of seeing "well the s2000" pop up as it always does. Same goes for the "moar HP!" crowd.