That engine though. Where will it sit among the great 4cyl NA's?

[Red-86]

Originally Posted by Baldeagle

This addresses my thought. If not the BRZ/86, what else?

370Z? MX-5 Miata?

When I decided to replace my 86, those were literally the top two contenders. Mostly because both were old school, RWD, Japanese sports cars with nicer engines.

More power is always nice, but how fast must the new twin be to satisfy?

As fast as similarly priced competition? Aforementioned 370Z which is similar in price. Mustang Ecoboost, Camaro 2.0T etc. That would silence the critics.

Would you move up to a RWD BMW 320i Coupe 6MT,

Personally, nope, not interested in a tall, ugly, boxy, overpriced BMW 2 door sedan.

How about a much faster but unrefined and bulky American muscle car?

Do you mean the turbo 4 versions which are more competitive on price? They should definitely be considered. Lighter and nimbler than the V8s, and they perform and handle very well.

A FWD GTI/GLI?

Personally, nope, not interested in a FWD, tall, boxy, 5 door econohatch. Maybe if they still sold the Scirocco, but alas, they killed that gorgeous car off years ago.

Would you sacrifice a MT and consider a 2.0T Supra?

If they sold the 2.0 Supra in my country (they don’t), and if it was priced well, I might.

Nobody has to buy the next gen twin.

I think it will sell well if the price is kept competitive. Here in Australia the 1st gen was very popular, not least because it was relatively cheap. Price sensitivity is high though, so if they move it substantially up in price, sales will reduce.

But given that all cars have compromises, will the twin remain the best <$40,000 game in town for a purist?

Maybe, maybe not. 370Z is just as pure, but a lot quicker. MX-5 is slightly quicker, lighter and very much pure. It’s odd not to mention either of those most logical ‘purist, NA, RWD, Japanese sports cars’ from your list of competitor cars.

Even if the 2.4 is not the best NA four cylinder made, will it be good enough?

Honestly, until we can test drive the thing for ourselves, none of us can really answer that.

For me, the main issue is addressing the torque and power delivery. If they have done that whilst staying NA, great. Also, a nicer sounding engine would be nice.

[albert]

I traded a 2016 BMW 228i, inline-4 turbo, for the BRZ. Gotta admit the one thing I missed from the 228i is the engine. It's a gem, revs to 7K, barely any lag. 0-60 in 5.5 secs, would be even faster in a 400 lbs lighter BRZ.

Now that I have the BRZ, sometimes I wish it has the BMW's 2L turbo.

[Red-86]

Originally Posted by albert

Now that I have the BRZ, sometimes I wish it has the BMW's 2L turbo.

Was that the N20 or B48?

[Blighty]

Originally Posted by Red-86

As fast as similarly priced competition? Aforementioned 370Z which is similar in price. Mustang Ecoboost, Camaro 2.0T etc. That would silence the critics.
...
Maybe, maybe not. 370Z is just as pure, but a lot quicker. MX-5 is slightly quicker, lighter and very much pure. It’s odd not to mention either of those most logical ‘purist, NA, RWD, Japanese sports cars’ from your list of competitor cars.

In australia the starting price for a BRZ is 38k, 36k for the 86, and the base 370Z is 50k.

The MX5 (2l) starts at 49k.

The position of the 86/BRZ as an affordable pure RWD sports car is legitimately hard to match.

And even in a fair fight without price being a factor, there are some driving advantages the 86 has over the others, though clearly the 2l MX5 took its glory in a lot of ways from that pure driving experience when it upped the power.

The new cars pricing position is critical.

[Red-86]

Originally Posted by Blighty

In australia the starting price for a BRZ is 38k, 36k for the 86, and the base 370Z is 50k.

BRZ tS, which is really the one to get to compete with the other cars features and performance wise, goes up to $44.6k.

In the 86, you really want to step up to the GTS with the Dynamic Performance Pack to compete with the others, which goes up to $44k.

Trust me, I had a base GT, it is a complete poverty pack compared to an MX-5 or a 370Z - not comparable. You need the higher trim levels just to compare apples to apples, and when you do that, these cars are all a lot closer in price.

The MX5 (2l) starts at 49k.

It doesn't actually. A base Roadster with the 1.5L is $39.6k driveaway. A base RF (which as a retractable hardtop is the closest comparison to a twin) with the 180HP 2.0L engine is $45k driveaway, $4k cheaper than the Roadster GT.

The point is that all these cars are within a stone's throw of each other. With a few options to get them comparable, they are all in the low $40-$50k range.

The position of the 86/BRZ as an affordable pure RWD sports car is legitimately hard to match.

I think we just price matched it pretty well with an MX-5 RF and a 370Z. They are all within $5-10k of each other, which makes them competitors to me (literally, as I benchmarked all of them when I went from my 86 GT to a 370Z).

To be clear, I'm not saying the twins are not decent value here - they are. But they are not the only game in town - they have legit competitors that are not far off in terms of price, certainly not enough to prevent cross shopping from someone with up to $50k to spend on a new RWD sports car.

clearly the 2l MX5 took its glory in a lot of ways from that pure driving experience when it upped the power.

Yeah, the uprated 2.0L in the MX-5 makes it legitimately quicker than the 1st gen twins. Which is a bit sad and shows how Toyobaru were resting on their laurels a bit whilst Mazda was determined to make a genuine improvement to the MX-5. I suspect the new 2.4L in the twins will peg that back and put the new twins just in front, but we shall see.

The new cars pricing position is critical.

Absolutely, as it is for all these cars in the 'affordable' and thus price sensitive end of the market.

Credit where due, we have the twins to thank for the much more aggressive pricing of both the MX-5 and 370Z in the Australian market. Before the twins came out, the MX-5 was well into the $50+k range for a base and the 370Z was in the $60+k range. When the twins came out starting in the $30k range back in 2013, it forced an adjustment by both Mazda and Nissan. And for that I will be eternally grateful to Toyota and Subaru.

[Blighty]

Originally Posted by Red-86

BRZ tS, which is really the one to get to compete with the other cars features and performance wise, goes up to $44.6k.

In the 86, you really want to step up to the GTS with the Dynamic Performance Pack to compete with the others, which goes up to $44k.

Well, I wouldn't agree with that, I think the base car is great, its also the lightest - and at those power levels, that makes an appreciable difference.

I didn't notice that the base RF was cheaper - was a bit shocked when you said it actually - that's a much better price for that car.

But I think my point still has merit because its still 9k more than the base 86, which is exactly 25% more money. Is it a 25% better car? Honestly yes it is (I've driven the droptop), but can another 9k make a difference in your limited budget and potentially get you into a fun new sports car where you wouldn't normally be able to - I think that's also a yes. So as the absolute entry level, its still right there.

Originally Posted by Red-86

Yeah, the uprated 2.0L in the MX-5 makes it legitimately quicker than the 1st gen twins. Which is a bit sad and shows how Toyobaru were resting on their laurels a bit whilst Mazda was determined to make a genuine improvement to the MX-5. I suspect the new 2.4L in the twins will peg that back and put the new twins just in front, but we shall see.

Definitely agree Toyoburu needed to respond better with that 2016 mid refresh, I would of liked that last model to of been ~160kw with the tq fix, so that was an opportunity to stay relevant that they missed, and allowed the MX5 to really take over the narrative, even at its higher price. If they are wondering why the sales went down a lot, even though its a great platform, I think that mistake was a big reason for it.

I'm not really sure the 370Z is a competitor, I think its actually an affordable touring car more than a sports car. You can buy another car with the 14k difference between the two base models (particularly if your goal is a track car, that's a lot of your money for that right there).

Originally Posted by Red-86

Credit where due, we have the twins to thank for the much more aggressive pricing of both the MX-5 and 370Z in the Australian market. Before the twins came out, the MX-5 was well into the $50+k range for a base and the 370Z was in the $60+k range. When the twins came out starting in the $30k range back in 2013, it forced an adjustment by both Mazda and Nissan. And for that I will be eternally grateful to Toyota and Subaru.

Yeah, they were my first real entry into it, while I owned a Corolla Sportivo before it, the step up from that hothatch to the 86 was a real shock. It was my first experience of proper sports handling, and I was addicted.

I've got one last personal bit about 'affording' this car over others - the 2+2 spec. I think the only reason I am buying the new one after just selling the old one to beef up a homeloan deposit is because the low price with the extra room means I'm not completely ditching the car for practicality, and even though I'm in a position where I could afford an MX5 or a 370Z, I'm not in a position where I can have a car that isnt one I can drive daily and use it for pretty much everything still.

To have a car that fights above its price in both sports performance AND practicality is a pretty good combination.

[JesseG]

The 370Z isn’t a true competitor to the twins IMO. It feels heavier (and faster), and it’s a car with a different purpose. The MX5 competes performance wise, and the philosophy behind it is to be a pure sports car. But it’s a tiny convertible, and I wouldn’t want to daily drive one. The twins are almost in a class of 1. If the RX-8 still existed I think that would be the closest competitor. The Honda S2000 is in a league by itself, and again, a small convertible. An older Lotus Elise or Exige could be considered a competitor, but they are hardcore compared to the twins, and more expensive by far.
I’m not saying the twins aren’t cross shopped with other sporty enthusiast cars, but the purpose and design of these cars from day one is unlike anything else on sale.


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[Red-86]

Originally Posted by JesseG

The 370Z isn’t a true competitor to the twins IMO. It feels heavier (and faster), and it’s a car with a different purpose.

I'm not sure I agree. What's the purpose of a two door, RWD sports car? Track use? Spirited drive in the hills? Commuting or doing a small shopping run? Tuning and modding in an extensive aftermarket? Looking cool and having fun? Both of these cars do all of the above. To me that suggests they have a similar purpose.

The MX5 competes performance wise, and the philosophy behind it is to be a pure sports car. But it’s a tiny convertible, and I wouldn’t want to daily drive one.

Why? It's perfectly fine, especially the RF which provides more refinement and normal coupe like weather protection compared to the soft top.

The twins are almost in a class of 1.

Only if you create a class so narrow that only a single car can fill it.

The twins actually have a lot in common with the Z:

- Japanese
- RWD
- Front-engined
- Naturally aspirated
- Daily drivable
- Fun in spirited driving
- Track capable with a few mods
- Reasonable storage space
- Similar dimensions (L x W x H)
- Reasonably close in price (depending on spec/options)

When I was shopping for a coupe in 2015, and again in 2020, I wanted all of the above which meant the twins and Z were both on my short list. The first time I chose the twins, the second time I chose the Z. I also considered the MX-5 but ultimately had to rule it out for it's complete lack of ability to transport long items.

If the RX-8 still existed I think that would be the closest competitor.

Which car do you think was the closest competitor to the RX-8 when it was around... it was the 350Z/370Z!

An older Lotus Elise or Exige could be considered a competitor, but they are hardcore compared to the twins, and more expensive by far.

As I detailed above, the twins have far more in common with the Z than either has with tiny, lighter, track focused and far more hard core mid-engined Lotuses! The twins and the Z are both affordable, Japanese, RWD, front-engined sports coupes that balance daily practicality and drivability with sports car usage. The Lotuses are almost entirely devoid of any daily practicality or drivability, have no storage space, and are focused almost entirely on track usage.

I’m not saying the twins aren’t cross shopped with other sporty enthusiast cars, but the purpose and design of these cars from day one is unlike anything else on sale.

Again, it really isn't unless you are making your selection criteria so narrow that only a single car could possibly fill it. In my experience most buyers are not so narrowly focused that only a single car is on their shortlist. Indeed, I often see potential buyers cross shopping cars far more diverse than a twin and a Z e.g. choosing between a WRX, a BRZ and a Mustang!

In any case, I think we should just remember that our own buying preferences and criteria don't apply to everyone else. Some of us have very specific criteria such that only a single car could meet it... others have more permissive criteria that could potentially be met by a variety of cars.

[bcj]

The 370Z isn't a 4 pot.

What is it you're on about?

[Red-86]

Originally Posted by bcj

The 370Z isn't a 4 pot.

What is it you're on about?

What has being a 4 pot got to do with a discussion about the twins competitors in the market? This is the FT86 forum, discussions rarely stay on topic.

[Willpower]

Originally Posted by Blighty

In australia the starting price for a BRZ is 38k, 36k for the 86, and the base 370Z is 50k.

The MX5 (2l) starts at 49k.

The position of the 86/BRZ as an affordable pure RWD sports car is legitimately hard to match.

And even in a fair fight without price being a factor, there are some driving advantages the 86 has over the others, though clearly the 2l MX5 took its glory in a lot of ways from that pure driving experience when it upped the power.

The new cars pricing position is critical.

Holy cow that’s a lot a dough for these cars!! What does a Jeep JLU Rubicon run over there?

[JesseG]

I hear ya Red-86, and I know people cross shop all sorts of different cars in the enthusiast segment. I think all of the cars mentioned belong in the discussion.
For a lot of people a true “sports car” has to be a convertible and RWD. I can understand that, and it’s a tradition that goes back to the small and lightweight British roadsters. So by that definition the Miata (MX5) is the most affordable sports car made today. The twins don’t do top down motoring, so it’s a strange comparison to me. The Miata is small, I don’t fit in them comfortably (I’m tall with long legs). It’s almost useless as a daily driver. But it’s probably the best “sports car”. The RF doesn’t magically make it bigger or more practical.
The Z is a GT car, and it doesn’t feel nearly as fun and tossable as the 86/BRZ. I think it makes an ok daily driver. It’s much more powerful than the twins. The Supra is its closest competitor. And I expect the 400Z will have the Supra in its sights. Props to Nissan for making a new Z car without farming out the hard work to another company. *cough*Toyota*cough*
The RX8 is a fun, lightweight, RWD, naturally aspirated, practical, enthusiast car. That got abysmal gas mileage. Back in the day they were frequently compared to cars like the 350Z and Audi TT. There were some other creative comparisons as well, but I think auto journalists were always scratching their head with what to put it up against. It has mini rear suicide doors, how do you compare that?! And a rotary engine. It was a unique beast.

A Mustang can be easily compared to the Camaro and Challenger. The 370Z to a Supra and M2 (maybe M3, but they have gone way upmarket). The Miata doesn’t really have any direct competitors, except for the Fiat Spyder, and maybe the Z4 and TT. The STI and EVO battled for years.

What has the 86’s arch nemesis been? There is really nothing. It’s either too slow to fairly compare to certain cars, or a completely different layout. IMO the 86/BRZ is a modern day 240SX/Silvia or RX8. I know the inspiration for the entire project was the AE86 Corolla, but that car was a hatchback based on a very pedestrian platform. I think Toyota just wanted something to bring the same driving enjoyment as the AE86. Anyway, these are just all my opinions, and I’ve cross shopped many of these cars. Nothing can match the driving dynamics of the 86 for the price. How a car drives is much different than how it appears on paper.


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[Red-86]

Originally Posted by Willpower

Holy cow that’s a lot a dough for these cars!! What does a Jeep JLU Rubicon run over there?

Factor in exchange rates and it is not that bad. Remember, the AUD is only worth about 0.74 USD.

AUD 38k (base BRZ) is USD 28k.
AUD 45k (MX-5 RF or BRZ tS) is USD 33k
AUD 50k (370Z) is USD 37k

Bear in mind Aussie models tend to be the high spec, loaded models. We generally don't get the stripped out cheap base models the USA does. Plus, those are driveaway prices, all taxes and registration for the first 12 months paid etc, so if you think of it that way, it's not totally dissimilar to USA prices.

Jeep is tiny over here, almost no market presence... plus they have an awful reputation here for poor reliability and bad customer service. I looked up the Rubicon here and (before on road costs, which generally add around $3-4k) it seems to go for AUD 72k (USD 53k) for the four door.

Where we really get ripped off is Euro prestige cars. A base Cayman 718 is AUD 113k (USD 83k) vs USD 60k in the USA (AUD 80k). There is little justification for this other than price gouging, and Porsche AU is one of the worst for it.

[JesseG]

Originally Posted by Red-86

Factor in exchange rates and it is not that bad. Remember, the AUD is only worth about 0.74 USD.

AUD 38k (base BRZ) is USD 28k.
AUD 45k (MX-5 RF or BRZ tS) is USD 33k
AUD 50k (370Z) is USD 37k

Bear in mind Aussie models tend to be the high spec, loaded models. We generally don't get the stripped out cheap base models the USA does. Plus, those are driveaway prices, all taxes and registration for the first 12 months paid etc, so if you think of it that way, it's not totally dissimilar to USA prices.

Jeep is tiny over here, almost no market presence... plus they have an awful reputation here for poor reliability and bad customer service. I looked up the Rubicon here and (before on road costs, which generally add around $3-4k) it seems to go for AUD 72k (USD 53k) for the four door.

Where we really get ripped off is Euro prestige cars. A base Cayman 718 is AUD 113k (USD 83k) vs USD 60k in the USA (AUD 80k). There is little justification for this other than price gouging, and Porsche AU is one of the worst for it.

That’s a shame, Jeep Wranglers should be really popular there! Even Jeep Grand Cherokees should be popular. I wonder how the poor reliability reputation started?


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