CSG Spec Tein Flex A Owners Thread

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Var

LOL..no it's not. Not even close.

If you had a BONE STOCK stock car with a 45mm drop knuckle kit, the car would still have factory geometry. If you tried to raise it any further from where it is, or lower it any further from where it is, you have compromised geometry.

But at least in the case of lowering, you're not sweeping past the optimum angle on compression. Your control arm will always be operating under that angle save for weird cases of excessive droop, which is not an issue generally and would be on the unloaded side anyway.

However, if you raise your car, as the suspension compresses, the knuckle will travel from below the pickup point on the subframe, to neutral, to above. This transition will cause unpredictable behavior because of nonlinear and not even unidirectional changes in roll resistance and camber curves

Your wise fab drops the car and compensates for the geometry simultaneously. That's the beauty of it.

That then lets you run the Flex A at "super high height" aka stock height equivalent, while retaining the intended stroke range. Now obviously you shouldn't run the CSG FLA that high out of the box, but thats where an extended sleeve comes in to play.

I get that suspension is a complex system, and you may need to visualize it.

[timurrrr]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Now obviously you shouldn't run the CSG FLA that high out of the box, but thats where an extended sleeve comes in to play.

Do you sell those extended sleeves on your website? Or how can one get those?

[Var]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Your wise fab drops the car and compensates for the geometry simultaneously. That's the beauty of it.

That then lets you run the Flex A at "super high height" aka stock height equivalent, while retaining the intended stroke range. Now obviously you shouldn't run the CSG FLA that high out of the box, but thats where an extended sleeve comes in to play.

You're talking past me and conveniently ignoring the issue, which is not stroke range. Read my last post again and answer it. I can draw you a picture if you want.

Your potential customer

timurrrr

asked you about ride height, not stroke range. Address the geometry issue with your solution. You can't

[CSG Mike]

Stock knuckle




As you know, a roll center correction kit corrects roll center by dropping the lower control arm relative to the knuckle, e.g. the front whiteline RC kit. YOU correct less, or more, by using spacers to shim it.

Wisefab knuckle, with built-in roll center correction. Note the position of the LCA.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by timurrrr

Do you sell those extended sleeves on your website? Or how can one get those?

I believe they're custom made, as most folks don't ask for them; the folks who want that level of customization are typically running a much more customize able suspension with a larger/wider/longer shock body, like a JRZ.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Var

You're talking past me and conveniently ignoring the issue, which is not stroke range. Read my last post again and answer it. I can draw you a picture if you want.

Your potential customer asked you about ride height, not stroke range. Address the geometry issue with your solution. You can't

I'm not ignoring the issue, because there is no issue. You're grasping at straws, and looking for issues or things to complain about, when there isn't really.

Quite frankly, from the email chain that was forwarded to me, I see the sales team took your request quite literally when you asked to complete the rear first, and gave you a complete rear solution, minus the rear extended sleeve.

It would they inadvertently overdelivered trying to get you the best solution and value possible, since in the process of completing your rear, they also factored in and corrected your lightly compromised roll center, and also gave you full rear adjustments to play with.

The only oversight here I see, is that they didn't account for the shorter shock body of the FLA, since this type of setup is normally reserved for folks using JRZs or Penskes on this platform, and don't need any coilover modification.

Originally Posted by Var

If you had a BONE STOCK stock car with a 45mm drop knuckle kit, the car would still have factory geometry. If you tried to raise it any further from where it is, or lower it any further from where it is, you have compromised geometry.

That's precisely what I'm telling you to do.

[Var]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I'm not ignoring the issue, because there is no issue.

That's not what was being discussed. If you do a wisefab kit and you are ok with the ride height you end up at, then all is kosher. You can use a sleeve. You can use a longer shock body. You will be golden.

If you try to set the car back up to the default, pre-set ride-height of the Flex A, your suspension geometry will be much worse off than if you had slammed your car an equal amount

[Var]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Quite frankly, from the email chain that was forwarded to me, I see the sales team took your request quite literally when you asked to complete the rear first, and gave you a complete rear solution, minus the rear extended sleeve.

It would they inadvertently overdelivered trying to get you the best solution and value possible, since in the process of completing your rear, they also factored in and corrected your lightly compromised roll center, and also gave you full rear adjustments to play with.

The only oversight here I see, is that they didn't account for the shorter shock body of the FLA, since this type of setup is normally reserved for folks using JRZs or Penskes on this platform, and don't need any coilover modification.

Forget my ongoing issue with CSG for the moment. That's none of your business any longer. I'm just talking about setup and potential negative consequences of using a certain part in an unintended way, which is what I'm trying to avoid.

I want you to envision my control arms parallel right now. And envision them when I lift the car another inch, regardless of the method i use to lift the car (barring of course uninstalling the wisefab kit if you're going to be pedantic) Let's just say I used sleeves to raise it

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Var

That's not what was being discussed. If you do a wisefab kit and you are ok with the ride height you end up at, then all is kosher. You can use a sleeve. You can use a longer shock body. You will be golden.

If you try to set the car back up to the default, pre-set ride-height of the Flex A, your suspension geometry will be much worse off than if you had slammed your car an equal amount

That's where the extended sleeve comes in.

Do you know how suspension ride height is set? I think we may need to clarify a few basic coilover adjustments for you, because I think you may be misunderstanding some fundamentals.

Ride height is set by adjusting the body against the sleeve. An extended sleeve allows for a longer coilover assembly for a larger range of adjustment.

In this case, the CSG FLA is specifically designed with a short sleeve to allow for a reasonable drop. You need a longer body because your drop is already achieved by the knuckle.

Drops, in theory, need roll center correction. Your knuckle already corrects the roll center change for you.

You literally have the best of both worlds, and just need a longer damper body to finish it off.

[CSG Mike]

Measurements A and B are what you are setting to recommended.

C and D are redundant. Because your setup requires a longer body, C and D are extended.

C and D are provided as redundancy against A and B.

[Var]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

That's where the extended sleeve comes in.

Do you know how suspension ride height is set? I think we may need to clarify a few basic coilover adjustments for you, because I think you may be misunderstanding some fundamentals.

Ride height is set by adjusting the body against the sleeve. An extended sleeve allows for a longer coilover assembly for a larger range of adjustment.

In this case, the CSG FLA is specifically designed with a short sleeve to allow for a reasonable drop. You need a longer body because your drop is already achieved by the knuckle.

Drops, in theory, need roll center correction. Your knuckle already corrects the roll center change for you.

You literally have the best of both worlds, and just need a longer damper body to finish it off.

I can use a sleeve or a longer shock body to raise the car. I understand that. This was never in question. There are consequences.

If my control arms are currently parallel to the ground, i.e., in the corrected and correct position, what would happen to the control arm angles if I raised the rear end of the car one inch using a sleeve? Don't deflect. Answer that question

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Var

I can use a sleeve or a longer shock body to raise the car. I understand that. This was never in question. There are consequences.

If my control arms are currently parallel to the ground, i.e., in the corrected and correct position, what would happen to the control arm angles if I raised the rear end of the car one inch using a sleeve? Don't deflect. Answer that question

Why would you raise the car an inch higher than stock? You'd get jacking.

Your question reveals that you're not seeing the big picture.

CSG FLA naturally results in a drop, while compromising RC

Wisefab naturally results in a drop, correcting RC

Increase CSG FLA body length to only utilize Wisefab drop. This now optimizes geometry, and uses intended stroke of CSG FLA.

Boom. Done.

[Var]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Why would you raise the car an inch higher than stock? You'd get jacking.

THANK YOU! Mind you, that's not an inch higher than stock, that's an inch higher than where wisefab put me. That would be an inch higher than the stock damper length, which is what your sleeve solution would do.

Now..Why would I raise the rear end of the car one inch? Because the hardware that CSG recommended and sold to me slammed the rear end of my car by over an inch. I did not want this. All I wanted was full rear spherical bushings. So now I have to raise the rear end , or lower the front end. These are the options I have.

If I raise the rear end by the amount necessary, I ruin the geometry. If I lower the front end by the amount necessary, I ruin the geometry. I would have to spend thousands of more dollars to do either without ruining the geometry.

[nlopez]

Originally Posted by Var

LOL..no it's not. Not even close.

If you had a BONE STOCK stock car with a 45mm drop knuckle kit, the car would still have factory geometry. If you tried to raise it any further from where it is, or lower it any further from where it is, you have compromised geometry.

But at least in the case of lowering, you're not sweeping past the optimum angle on compression. Your control arm will always be operating under that angle save for weird cases of excessive droop, which is not an issue generally and would be on the unloaded side anyway.

However, if you raise your car, as the suspension compresses, the control arms (on the knuckle side) will travel from below the pickup point on the subframe, to neutral, to above. This transition will cause unpredictable behavior because of nonlinear and not even unidirectional changes in roll resistance and camber curves

Since you're not getting the answer you want/need... Have you consulted Wisefab, Tein, or Perrin for a solution to your problem?