KPower Industries K24 swap

[Four_wheel_drifts]

Regarding post #751.

From further down the page you quoted:

•Smooth: k24 with stock oilpump
•drivable: k20 with 60a is okey
•my worst nightmare, a high comp (12,5:1 or higher) k24 with k20a2-oilpump!

It’s kind of hard to argue with “worst nightmare” especially since he has driven so many k engine cars.

While my car spends most of its life on track, I still want to drive the ~150 miles each way without having to trailer it. The vibrations will drive me crazy.

Could it be as simple as running the “correct” oil pump? With the kpower kit, it’s an oil pan clearance issue, correct? That’s why they have you ditch the perfectly fine pump that come with the k24a2 and replace it?

[captain awesome]

Originally Posted by Four_wheel_drifts

Regarding post #751.

From further down the page you quoted:

•Smooth: k24 with stock oilpump
•drivable: k20 with 60a is okey
•my worst nightmare, a high comp (12,5:1 or higher) k24 with k20a2-oilpump!

It’s kind of hard to argue with “worst nightmare” especially since he has driven so many k engine cars.

While my car spends most of its life on track, I still want to drive the ~150 miles each way without having to trailer it. The vibrations will drive me crazy.

Could it be as simple as running the “correct” oil pump? With the kpower kit, it’s an oil pan clearance issue, correct? That’s why they have you ditch the perfectly fine pump that come with the k24a2 and replace it?

The pump replacement kind of fixes two issues. Pan clearance but also adds quite a few extra RPM.



Also I think it's worth noting the vibration that I am experiencing is mostly within a certain RPM under load. If I'm putting along the highway at 3k it's completely manageable. If I were further into the 4k range just holding it there you will notice it considerably. Above that or below is a nice mellow spot. I cruise around town mostly in the 2k range. With the old fa20 I could never feel comfortable in that range because it lacked any torque to get up to speed without needing to downshift 1-2 gears. The k motor doesn't seem to care as much. Personally I find it easier to drive compared to the fa20 in so many ways.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Four_wheel_drifts

Regarding post #751.

From further down the page you quoted:

•Smooth: k24 with stock oilpump
•drivable: k20 with 60a is okey
•my worst nightmare, a high comp (12,5:1 or higher) k24 with k20a2-oilpump!

It’s kind of hard to argue with “worst nightmare” especially since he has driven so many k engine cars.

While my car spends most of its life on track, I still want to drive the ~150 miles each way without having to trailer it. The vibrations will drive me crazy.

Could it be as simple as running the “correct” oil pump? With the kpower kit, it’s an oil pan clearance issue, correct? That’s why they have you ditch the perfectly fine pump that come with the k24a2 and replace it?

It is a little early to tell if this is a problem that will persist or not. I told my wife if it does then I might hold onto it for now, but will quickly transition to a Harrop supercharger on the second gen and use this for a track car or sell it. The problem is I have sound deadening and a kick ass stereo system, and I like the look a lot. I want a steetable car more than I want a full shaking race car. To me, at this point, I might as well pull the sound deadening and stereo system, and I might as well gut the interior and straight pipe the car because it is so far into the race car feel at some speeds that it might as well be there at every speed. The other issue with that is I want to be able to use the car and not avoid speeds or rpms. I drive how I drive. Lowering the RPMS I drive at defeats the point of having a rev-happy and high revving engine.

I need to do some testing on the vibrations and finish the tuning process before I make my final review.

[captain awesome]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

It is a little early to tell if this is a problem that will persist or not. I told my wife if it does then I might hold onto it for now, but will quickly transition to a Harrop supercharger on the second gen and use this for a track car or sell it. The problem is I have sound deadening and a kick ass stereo system, and I like the look a lot. I want a steetable car more than I want a full shaking race car. rTo me, at this point, I might as well pull the sound deadening and stereo system, and I might as well gut the interior and straight pipe the car because it is so far into the race car feel at some speeds that it might as well be there at every speed. The other issue with that is I want to be able to use the car and not avoid speeds or rpms. I drive how I drive. Lowering the RPMS I drive at defeats the point of having a rev-happy and high revving engine.

I need to do some testing on the vibrations and finish the tuning process before I make my final review.

I'm curious about your sound deadening as I was going to begin the process myself to quiet road noise and kill some audio buzzing/rattles. Did you do anything by the trans tunnel? Got a thread?

[alex87f]

Originally Posted by captain awesome

The pump replacement kind of fixes two issues. Pan clearance but also adds quite a few extra RPM.



Also I think it's worth noting the vibration that I am experiencing is mostly within a certain RPM under load. If I'm putting along the highway at 3k it's completely manageable. If I were further into the 4k range just holding it there you will notice it considerably. Above that or below is a nice mellow spot. I cruise around town mostly in the 2k range. With the old fa20 I could never feel comfortable in that range because it lacked any torque to get up to speed without needing to downshift 1-2 gears. The k motor doesn't seem to care as much. Personally I find it easier to drive compared to the fa20 in so many ways.

I'm by no means a K-series or engine swap expert (heck, I barely know my 86s), but I'd find it extremely weird KPower didn't see such an issue coming, being that it has nothing to do with the swap itself, and is already documented.

Is there a video of this engine vibration? Could it "simply" be a matter of running overly hard silent blocs in the drivetrain? Has Irace tried running with the shifter disconnected from the tunnel (if that's even possible)?

I did see a rise in NVH in my car following something as benign as using hose clamps around the two rear axleback SBs (which needed shortening), these can make a huge difference.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by captain awesome

I'm curious about your sound deadening as I was going to begin the process myself to quiet road noise and kill some audio buzzing/rattles. Did you do anything by the trans tunnel? Got a thread?

Yes, it is all in my build link in my sig. I did everything except the firewall. I wonder what type of vibrations I would get without it. I can only imagine.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by alex87f

I'm by no means a K-series or engine swap expert (heck, I barely know my 86s), but I'd find it extremely weird KPower didn't see such an issue coming, being that it has nothing to do with the swap itself, and is already documented.

Is there a video of this engine vibration? Could it "simply" be a matter of running overly hard silent blocs in the drivetrain? Has Irace tried running with the shifter disconnected from the tunnel (if that's even possible)?

I did see a rise in NVH in my car following something as benign as using hose clamps around the two rear axleback SBs (which needed shortening), these can make a huge difference.

Going into this I had a Perrin shift bushing, Whittling transmission bushing, MTEC shift springs, Whiteline Positive Traction Kit, Whiteline Support Outrigger Insert, Blitz Strut Tower, Eibach lowering springs, Exedy Stage 1 clutch kit, Verus Fork/Pivot, Grimspeed master cylinder brace, Harrop supercharger with E85 at 1 bar of boost with an ACE header, stock front pipe, Greddy SP catback, sound deadened interior....and it was fairly perfect for me. There was the perfect amount of exhaust note. The drivetrain noise was ideal. The shifter was tight and notchy. The clutch had decel noise, but minor. The exhaust had no drone and wasn't too loud, but would really open up to a medium pitch aggressive note that I really liked. The car was fairly perfect as it was until it blew. I could have swapped in another FA20, but I wouldn't have been satisfied going down in boost or concerning myself with the reliability of another blown motor, and I didn't think investing in a built motor was my best option if the car was ever going to see serious track time someday. A new motor plus a build would have been $8-10k, so this swap seemed much better.

I still need to see what I can do, but it might just be the driveshaft because that seems to be a recurring issue for people. Overall, as it sits now, it is night and day different in rattles. I can't disconnect the shifter without going to a IRP or something. I actually don't get much vibration through my shifter compared to other vibration and noise. I don't know if the driveshaft isn't aligned perfectly, but then in my mind, the driveshaft would always be loud and not quiet on the highway. The bump in vibration is like the bump in noise a person would expect going from a stock exhaust to a cat-less setup and an aftermarket catback, which is to say large, but not so bad the car feels like a straight piped race car. This video below kind of puts to words my same thoughts.

My Lancer had these 5-10 pound rubber weights attached to the front of the front crossbar behind the bumper, and they were there to add a counter weight to offset vibration resonance. I removed them, and there was more vibration, but it wasn't a huge bump. The difference between an Accord and CTR with no or smaller balancing shafts on the CTR isn't a huge difference. This vibration is huge like in the video. If I can get a video later then I will do that.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Fuel pump control ECU is bypassed per Kpower’s install, so I would assume voltage is maxed. It could change with rpms if voltage changes. I didn’t video the gauge while revving the engine. Or maybe the regulator changes based on demand by the ECU? I don’t know. Either way, I plan to add the fuel pressure sensor, so if the fuel pressure changes the ECU can compensate.

http://injectordynamics.com/articles...ure-explained/

I'm thinking that fuel pressure is regulated by pwm control of voltage coming out of the fuel pump module in stock form and the fuel pressure regulator is really just a sensor that lets the ECU know where it's at and maybe acts as the failsafe.

Here's why. A while back I drove to houston from SoCal for mud engineering school. Right after I got there, my car wouldn't start.

I started diagnosing it and it was fuel, not spark, and since my eventual intention was to add FI, I went ahead and ordered an AEM 340lph in tank fuel pump.

I still couldn't get it to start. I'm working on the car in a hotel parking lot in Houston. Between waiting for parts and everything, it took 3 weeks to get it working. I finally had to direct wire the fuel pump using a regulated 12v source.

This worked. I deduced that since it wasn't the fuel pump relay, that it must be the fuel pump module (located behind the passenger side rear interior panel). I ordered a new one, but the car was running fine the way I had it so I didn't worry about it.

FF to just recently when I finalized what I was going to do and I did it (twin supercharger install). Then all of a sudden when I'm logging, it starts running really rich when under light load. Like peg the O2 sensor level of rich, but under boost/under moderate load, the commanded and the actual are almost dead on.

So my thoughts are the ECU is trying to limit the voltage to the fuel pump and the pump is just pumping away, so when it doesn't need as much fuel, it's overloading the fuel pressure and running rich, but when it does need the fuel, it runs right.

So I just replaced the fuel pump module and rewired it back to the fuel pump and we'll see if that makes a difference. I'm thinking it has to, because nothing else makes sense.

Jaden

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Jaden

I'm thinking that fuel pressure is regulated by pwm control of voltage coming out of the fuel pump module.

It is on the stock system. I have one controller on my desk and another on a chassis harness I just got. It is a little silver box behind the panel next to the passenger rear seat.

[brzlegend]

Originally Posted by Jaden

I'm thinking that fuel pressure is regulated by pwm control of voltage coming out of the fuel pump module in stock form and the fuel pressure regulator is really just a sensor that lets the ECU know where it's at and maybe acts as the failsafe.



Jaden

Regulator is not a sensor, it's a regulator like other oem regulators.
Your pumping more fuel than the bypass, regulator and engine are flowing so pressure goes up.

The controller works great. It ran a 535lph thru the factory jet pump, bypass and fuel dam nozzle.

[Four_wheel_drifts]

Maybe getting the stock driveshaft shortened locally is the ticket. Likely another advantage of the kpower kit retaining the stock trans and rear end.

I’ve never had this done. Can’t imagine it costing the almost $700 kpower’s aluminum driveshaft.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Four_wheel_drifts

Maybe getting the stock driveshaft shortened locally is the ticket. Likely another advantage of the kpower kit retaining the stock trans and rear end.

I’ve never had this done. Can’t imagine it costing the almost $700 kpower’s aluminum driveshaft.

I went on a drive today, and I took some videos, but they don't really capture the noise, but I don't think it is the driveshaft. At least, the driveshaft isn't my main issue. I'm getting most of my noise on idle, so I think something is rubbing or something is creating a resonance. My guess is that even though the stock front pipe is hard mounted to the transmission, it is less ideal for that to be the case, so I plan on disconnecting that, and if it is the problem then I will do a rubber mount instead.

I mentioned it before, but I need to check that there is no rubbing anywhere from the oil pan to the strut tower to my downpipe and everything. I will also double check the engine mounts and make sure everything is secured.

Overall, the car seemed less obnoxious today on my drive, so maybe I just needed some time with it, to break it in and to give the Haltech time to fine tune the driveability.

[captain awesome]

I'm in contact with a local driveshaft shop that I previously planned to use for shortening the stock one. I've taken measurements and the front section will need to be shortened 5 1/2". This will be a fairly short piece before the carrier bearing but I think it will still work based on my discussion with the shop. It was mentioned that as long as I'm under a 20 degree angle of approach it will work fine. I probably will need to space the carrier bearing down just a smidge but if the angle isn't much it can be left alone. I plan to drop by the shop this afternoon or tomorrow and hopefully have a finished product by the end of the week.



I've also looked at shortening the stock shifter carrier. I plan to cut and have it welded back together to fit in the stock location. The front centerline marked above will need moved roughly to next longer line in sharpie. I may need to angle or pie cut the front hinge mount at the tail of the trans to get the right position. It may take more head scratching to get right but it looks doable as far as packaging goes. This will allow me to remove the solid mounted shifter and removes the need for the Whiteline insert.


I don't know if this will really fix ALL of the vibration. At idle when cold it has a specific resonance that seems more at the firewall than anywhere else. Similar to what Irace describes. The best way for me to describe it is similar to when I went to a lightweight flywheel from a heavy dual mass one on an E30 m42 I had. It wasn't terrible enough for me to want to switch back but was noticeable. Maybe some well placed dampening material on the firewall will help?

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by captain awesome

I've also looked at shortening the stock shifter carrier. I plan to cut and have it welded back together to fit in the stock location. The front centerline marked above will need moved roughly to next longer line in sharpie. I may need to angle or pie cut the front hinge mount at the tail of the trans to get the right position. It may take more head scratching to get right but it looks doable as far as packaging goes. This will allow me to remove the solid mounted shifter and removes the need for the Whiteline insert.

I don't know if this will really fix ALL of the vibration. At idle when cold it has a specific resonance that seems more at the firewall than anywhere else. Similar to what Irace describes. The best way for me to describe it is similar to when I went to a lightweight flywheel from a heavy dual mass one on an E30 m42 I had. It wasn't terrible enough for me to want to switch back but was noticeable. Maybe some well placed dampening material on the firewall will help?

I would have done this too if I had kept those components and thought it was going to matter. I could have welded it up myself pretty easy, so bummer. I will loosen the solid mounts for the shifter and see if it makes a difference. I had the transmission insert, and it definitely increased NVH, but it was very small to me, and I liked the sound it made, as it sounded like a dog box, but the volume wasn't 8-10, but 2-3, so it was totally, totally tolerable, and like I said, it added to the feel and race car. It didn't cause chassis vibration.

Here is another option if it is part of the problem: we could add some tall, rubber grommets under the hard mounting points, so it can move a little, or something like that. Just a thought.