06-30-2017, 09:49 AM | #99 | |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: 2013 Subaru BRZ
Location: Alberta
Posts: 519
Thanks: 39
Thanked 161 Times in 109 Posts
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
Camber reduces braking performance unless you really are riding a motorcycle. |
|
06-30-2017, 09:59 AM | #100 | |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: 2013 Subaru BRZ
Location: Alberta
Posts: 519
Thanks: 39
Thanked 161 Times in 109 Posts
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
Not sure what you wish me to back up, specific reference would help. You might identify where I have said that camber relative to the road is not important. The issue under discussion is your assertion that the double wishbone front suspension fitted to an MX5 was superior to the McPherson strut suspension fitted to the BRZ, and in the face of slightly superior lap times of the BRZ on grossly inferior tires. You might explain how you support that argument in light of objective reality. Here's Michelins advice for track use of their premier street tire: https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiret...nd_Feeding.pdf For street use on more ordinary tires less negative camber will work better. Even for track use Michelin warns that negative camber reduces braking performance. Your claimed expertise in winter braking is laughable and impossible so yes I'd like objective evidence of your car's ability to outperform its own ABS. I presume you understand that ABS means the car is doing all the skilled part of braking, no? Your photo is of your car, after the big static negative front camber? How about an MX5 with its fabulous double wishbone front suspension at the same corner, same speed? To make your point you need to have a snowy track..... |
|
06-30-2017, 11:23 AM | #101 | |||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: 2013 Asphalt FR-S Manual
Location: Whitby, ON, Canada
Posts: 6,716
Thanks: 7,875
Thanked 3,351 Times in 2,134 Posts
Mentioned: 99 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
Quote:
http://www.motortrend.com/cars/mazda...rz-comparison/ Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I don't need a miata on the same track/corner and same speed to know that these cars need more static camber up front than in the rear to equalize tire usage under lateral load, all due to the lack of any camber gain up front under compression. I've looked at enough of these cars, and seen first hand how much harder the front tires are being rolled over to not need to compare to another car. Comparing front to rear shows everything you need to see.
__________________
Light travels faster than sound, so people may appear to be bright until you hear them speak... flickr |
|||||||
The Following User Says Thank You to wparsons For This Useful Post: | WRBrzRX (06-30-2017) |
06-30-2017, 12:18 PM | #102 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Drives: '15 BRZ RA
Location: Greece
Posts: 3,787
Thanks: 2,416
Thanked 1,944 Times in 1,261 Posts
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
|
|
The Following User Says Thank You to nikitopo For This Useful Post: | WRBrzRX (06-30-2017) |
07-01-2017, 09:22 AM | #103 | |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: 2013 Subaru BRZ
Location: Alberta
Posts: 519
Thanks: 39
Thanked 161 Times in 109 Posts
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
Snow tires no longer need to "cut through the snow" to work properly. That's not how they work. There is no reason to fit narrower tires for winter use any longer, if there ever were. Narrower tires give a small advantage in traction for acceleration but the disadvantages in braking and cornering more than offset that modest difference. |
|
07-01-2017, 09:24 AM | #104 | |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: 2013 Subaru BRZ
Location: Alberta
Posts: 519
Thanks: 39
Thanked 161 Times in 109 Posts
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
Did you notice the missing roof on the Miata? Ever consider that the lighter vehicle weight gave the advantage to the Mazda? And so on, give up while you still can. |
|
07-01-2017, 11:46 AM | #105 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Drives: '15 BRZ RA
Location: Greece
Posts: 3,787
Thanks: 2,416
Thanked 1,944 Times in 1,261 Posts
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
Rally Sweden @wparsons does not have to afraid anything from you. You've been banned twice and the new ban is coming soon. Last edited by nikitopo; 07-01-2017 at 11:58 AM. |
|
07-01-2017, 02:45 PM | #106 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: 2013 Asphalt FR-S Manual
Location: Whitby, ON, Canada
Posts: 6,716
Thanks: 7,875
Thanked 3,351 Times in 2,134 Posts
Mentioned: 99 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
|
Do you honestly believe that the ~100lbs is worth 1.5 seconds per lap? Good luck with that theory.
__________________
Light travels faster than sound, so people may appear to be bright until you hear them speak... flickr |
The Following User Says Thank You to wparsons For This Useful Post: | WRBrzRX (07-01-2017) |
07-01-2017, 03:54 PM | #107 | |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: 2013 Subaru BRZ
Location: Alberta
Posts: 519
Thanks: 39
Thanked 161 Times in 109 Posts
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
And I think the 2017 BRZ might be as much as 1.5 seconds faster than previous model years. Last edited by Gforce; 07-01-2017 at 06:35 PM. |
|
07-01-2017, 05:59 PM | #108 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2014
Drives: 370z
Location: california
Posts: 364
Thanks: 162
Thanked 299 Times in 156 Posts
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
Man, I kind of am hoping you are a troll. I kind of feel sorry for you if this is how you really think. It must be hard to go through life thinking the world is out to get you instead of realizing your own lack of expertise. |
|
07-01-2017, 06:11 PM | #109 | |
Only happy when it rains.
Join Date: Feb 2013
Drives: series.blue
Location: Harnett county NC
Posts: 1,995
Thanks: 5,698
Thanked 1,263 Times in 749 Posts
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
|
|
07-01-2017, 06:38 PM | #110 | |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: 2013 Subaru BRZ
Location: Alberta
Posts: 519
Thanks: 39
Thanked 161 Times in 109 Posts
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
The RF hardtop MX5 is more like 100 lbs lighter than the BRZ, and slower. The BRZ is faster out of the corners onto the straights. The MX5 does very well in the transitions, a known weakness of the BRZ. Put the same tires on the BRZ and the BRZ will be faster than the MX5 RF everywhere. The op post linking to the 2017 motor trend video shows a track position tracker which illustrates the comparative advantage of the two cars. Why anyone would try and claim one is superior to the other as a sportscar purchase is beyond me. The market agrees as the two types of sportscar enjoy roughly equal sales, the 2017 MX5 has rejuvenated sales and it looks like the really good upgrades Subaru has made to the 2017 model is set to boost their sales also. I'd happily buy one of each. Maybe I will.... |
|
07-01-2017, 10:01 PM | #111 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: 2013 Asphalt FR-S Manual
Location: Whitby, ON, Canada
Posts: 6,716
Thanks: 7,875
Thanked 3,351 Times in 2,134 Posts
Mentioned: 99 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
Quote:
From mazda.ca: Soft top: 1058kg - 2324lbs RF: 1114kg - 2447lbs From toyota.ca 86: 1252kg - 2750lbs I was slightly off, the RF is actually 123lbs heavier, not 100lbs, but the point still stands and still A LOT closer than your statement. The lightest 86 is still 300lbs heavier than the heaviest miata, which is 3x the 100lbs you're claiming. Quote:
Based on what? The reviews state that the miata has more grip and higher cornering speeds, but is slower in transitions.
__________________
Light travels faster than sound, so people may appear to be bright until you hear them speak... flickr |
|||
07-02-2017, 09:31 AM | #112 |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: 2013 Subaru BRZ
Location: Alberta
Posts: 519
Thanks: 39
Thanked 161 Times in 109 Posts
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Check out the position trace in the lap diagram shown on the video (begins at 12:58). The BRZ beats the MX5 on the straights coming out of the corner before the straight. Simple reason is much more power. The MX5 has the performance pack (upgraded brake package, Bilstein shocks), the 86 does not. A BRZ with PP should beat the MX5 more convincingly. Fit pp s001 to the BRZ and the MX5 would be left in its dust.
As for the argument about the vehicle weights I think the 15-20% weight advantage accounts for the convertible Miata beating the older BRZ and the 3-5% weight advantage of the MX5 RF is clearly not enough to beat the suspension improvements Subaru finally made to the BRZ. Improvements I too have made thanks to the factory finally making rear springs with the correct spring rate for good handling. As I wish to emphasize for the original poster that nobody should choose between these cars based on the type of front suspension it has. The close real world performance should be sufficient proof that McPherson struts can be built to work just as effectively as double wishbones. And they hold their factory alignment settings forever. PS the published curb weight for the BRZ with pp is 1278 kg. (2812 lbs for our American friends). You're just supporting my argument that the new BRZ is a much better handler than the MX5, if you consider how much bigger it is. But you are right I confused my recollection of the weight difference between the two MX5 versions with the weight difference between the MX5 and the BRZ. Thanks for clearing that up. It makes me more right than I thought I was. Last edited by Gforce; 07-02-2017 at 09:49 AM. |
|
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Toyota 222D: The Story Behind Toyota’s Secret Group S MR2 Rally Car | vh_supra26 | Other Vehicles & General Automotive Discussions | 2 | 05-25-2017 08:10 AM |
Production Toyota FT-86 Details and Design Previewed by Toyota Sports Vehicle Boss | ft86cbx | Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum | 541 | 11-18-2011 09:04 PM |
Toyota FT-86 G's Sport Concept moved to Toyota Mega Web showroom at Odaiba | Kenji | FR-S & 86 Photos, Videos, Wallpapers, Gallery Forum | 23 | 05-02-2011 01:11 AM |
Toyota FT-86 G-Sport Concept car displayed with AE86 at Toyota Amlux, Tokyo | Kenji | FR-S & 86 Photos, Videos, Wallpapers, Gallery Forum | 11 | 03-08-2010 11:09 PM |
Report: Toyota chooses alternative Toyota FT-86 design (by Calty studio)! | Nemesis | Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum | 128 | 02-19-2010 11:36 AM |