How Does the Alfa 4C Stack Up Against the Toyota GT 86 / Scion FR-S & Porsche Cayman?

[Turbowned]

Originally Posted by mrg666

With an Edelbrock or JRSC, our cars have a power/weight ratio in the same class as base Cayman or 4C. Add suspension, brakes, tires/wheels, and oil cooler (plus clutch for MT), a twin can compete with those cars on track. I would only go for such a car for status upgrade not the car. To me, an upgrade would be 911 or Corvette ZR1.

You're not wrong; a BRZ/86 can be modified to compete with a 4C fairly easily.

However for someone like me who tends to get a new car every couple years, dumping ten grand into my BRZ isn't a good ROI unless I return it back to stock and sell everything when I'm done. Did that for my last one before trading it for a 911, and it was a lot of work but I did get most of my money back. If you buy a used exotic or semi-exotic right, you can enjoy it for a year and sell it for most of what you paid for it. I'm waiting another year to see how much more the 4C depreciates (if any) and then likely making my move.

I'd get another 911 but prices haven't budged any in three years and I'm sour over the fact that the same 997.1's I had are selling for the same price despite having more mileage now. Also, tires cost about three times as much, and I'm about ready to buy my third set of tires this year...

[why?]

Originally Posted by Turbowned

You're not wrong; a BRZ/86 can be modified to compete with a 4C fairly easily.

However for someone like me who tends to get a new car every couple years, dumping ten grand into my BRZ isn't a good ROI unless I return it back to stock and sell everything when I'm done. Did that for my last one before trading it for a 911, and it was a lot of work but I did get most of my money back. If you buy a used exotic or semi-exotic right, you can enjoy it for a year and sell it for most of what you paid for it. I'm waiting another year to see how much more the 4C depreciates (if any) and then likely making my move.

I'd get another 911 but prices haven't budged any in three years and I'm sour over the fact that the same 997.1's I had are selling for the same price despite having more mileage now. Also, tires cost about three times as much, and I'm about ready to buy my third set of tires this year...

4c has to depreciate more. I've seen no one assume they are going to be Toyota reliable.

[Braces]

Yep ... I still have the 4C.
It's just very unique. From the moment you turn the car on .... the car is always screaming at you. The sound that comes from this 21 lb boosted little 4 pot is amazing. I have the Akrapovic exhaust on mine which is just amazing.

As for driving .... I kind of miss my 13 FR-S. That car was so tossible in the corners. Oversteered perfectly. Amazing how well the FR-S/BRZ/GT86 plants itself in the corners. The 4C is a little more touchy. More understeer. I get the sense that oversteer in the FR-S is progressive, but if I explore the outer limits of grip in the 4C ... I'm afraid I might end up in a ditch. The FR-S is so much easier to drive. The 4C demands that you know what you are doing.

Now is the time if you are going to consider a 4C. As everyone knows .... the 4C has been discontinued. The discounts on new 4Cs still on the lots are around $15,000 off MSRP. A year ago I bought a fully specced brandnew 4C with a MSRP of $81,500 for $66,700. The discounts have been the same this year.

As for reliability ... mine has been rock solid after 2800 miles. Yes ... I don't DD the car. I don't want to be punished lol. It's a weekender for fun.

I'm a manual guy, but this DCT is perfect. This is not a smooth DCT with no feel. It is rough .... just the way I like it.

Manual steering is a non issue. I'm 6 feet and I have no problems getting into and out of the car.

[Turbowned]

Good to hear. My biggest fear is missing the manual trans but honestly for what I plan to use it for which is weekend and track use, the DCT will be better for lap times than my (mostly precise) manual shifting. However my new daily will have to have three pedals so I don't go crazy

[SuperTom]

Originally Posted by Braces

Yep ... I still have the 4C.
It's just very unique. From the moment you turn the car on .... the car is always screaming at you. The sound that comes from this 21 lb boosted little 4 pot is amazing. I have the Akrapovic exhaust on mine which is just amazing.

As for driving .... I kind of miss my 13 FR-S. That car was so tossible in the corners. Oversteered perfectly. Amazing how well the FR-S/BRZ/GT86 plants itself in the corners. The 4C is a little more touchy. More understeer. I get the sense that oversteer in the FR-S is progressive, but if I explore the outer limits of grip in the 4C ... I'm afraid I might end up in a ditch. The FR-S is so much easier to drive. The 4C demands that you know what you are doing.

Now is the time if you are going to consider a 4C. As everyone knows .... the 4C has been discontinued. The discounts on new 4Cs still on the lots are around $15,000 off MSRP. A year ago I bought a fully specced brandnew 4C with a MSRP of $81,500 for $66,700. The discounts have been the same this year.

As for reliability ... mine has been rock solid after 2800 miles. Yes ... I don't DD the car. I don't want to be punished lol. It's a weekender for fun.

I'm a manual guy, but this DCT is perfect. This is not a smooth DCT with no feel. It is rough .... just the way I like it.

Manual steering is a non issue. I'm 6 feet and I have no problems getting into and out of the car.

Those are basically the reviews I have read on the 4C. My current dream car


Im trying to spec my 86 to match the 4C. Im at 2475lbs and ~235 crank hp. The only thing I wont be able to match is the torque with the turbo on the 4C unless I got FI myself. I still have room to go a little lighter but not much more.

[Braces]

Originally Posted by Turbowned

Good to hear. My biggest fear is missing the manual trans but honestly for what I plan to use it for which is weekend and track use, the DCT will be better for lap times than my (mostly precise) manual shifting. However my new daily will have to have three pedals so I don't go crazy

Yeah, the car just doesn't set up well for a manual. As with most turbos ... you really need to keep it on boil. The other issue is that you have to keep BOTH arms on the steering wheel. The car can get twitchy and requires most of your attention.

I've had manuals for EVERY previous sport car I've ever owned including an R8 V10. I can assure you ... this DCT is not bad. Again .... I hate those super smooth DCTs. This one is rough. Just the way I like it. Race car rough. On full boil .... the shifts are fast. Very fast. I don't miss the manual at all.

[Tristor]

I test drove a 4C coupe last week, was considering possibly "upgrading" from the BRZ. The 4C is an amazing car, but right now I'm a single-car guy, so my DD is also what I take to the tracks on the weekends. The 4C was made for going on track and taking to the canyons, just fantastic out of the box, but would be hell as a DD on the rough roads of San Antonio. Dealership had a maxed out certified pre-owned on the lot with only ~1600 miles they were asking $47k for, and were nice enough to let me take it for several hours so I could get a real feel for it.


Honestly, I'm already deep enough in on upgrades for my BRZ that I think I'd rather just continue building it, and I think it can keep streetable comfort much better as a weekend warrior/DD car. The 4C would just be punishing as a DD, but damn if it's not cool. It feels like a micro-Ferrari basically, which I guess is pretty much what it is.

[nikitopo]

The 4C is not that light as some might think. Manufacturer specs were given many times using a dry car. Ordinary vehicle curb weight is about 2,465 lb (1,118 kg) which is not remarkable at all given the size of the car and all the cost a carbon chassis can have on a collision situation. In many cases you will have to throw away the car since it'll not be reparable. I would say it is basically an engineering example of how to throw your money in the trash. If you guys really want a lightweight car with same dimensions, then I believe the best buy for money is currently the revised MX-5.

Reference: https://www.alfaromeousa.com/content...CSpider_SP.PDF

[Braces]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

The 4C is not that light as some might think. Manufacturer specs were given many times using a dry car. Ordinary vehicle curb weight is about 2,465 lb (1,118 kg) which is not remarkable at all given the size of the car and all the cost a carbon chassis can have on a collision situation. In many cases you will have to throw away the car since it'll not be reparable. I would say it is basically an engineering example of how to throw your money in the trash. If you guys really want a lightweight car with same dimensions, then I believe the best buy for money is currently the revised MX-5.

Reference: https://www.alfaromeousa.com/content...CSpider_SP.PDF

Ouch. Everyone will have different opinions which is fine. There are definitely better cars out there, but if you want a baby Ferrari Scuderia .... this is the closest you will get. Most modern sportcars are trying to be everything to everyone. The 4C is a driver's car period. It will not coddle you with niceties seen with most cars today.

I live in North Scottsdale. Home to many exotic and super cars. After 10 months of ownership .... I've only seen ONE other 4C. Very exclusive. Low volume production and most likely .... people do not want to buy a single minded single purpose sportscar.

As for reliability ..... go hang out on the 4C-Forums. I'm @Braces over there too. Since the car's inception .... there's only been a couple of cars experiencing some engine issues and warranty is covering them. Many members have tracked and modified their cars with no issues whatsoever. Check out @callMeAl posts.

Trust me. After a test drive .... you'll realize how raw and insane this car is. Make sure you're in dynamic or race mode and have the tranny in manual paddle mode.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by Braces

Ouch. Everyone will have different opinions which is fine. There are definitely better cars out there, but if you want a baby Ferrari Scuderia .... this is the closest you will get. Most modern sportcars are trying to be everything to everyone. The 4C is a driver's car period. It will not coddle you with niceties seen with most cars today.



I live in North Scottsdale. Home to many exotic and super cars. After 10 months of ownership .... I've only seen ONE other 4C. Very exclusive. Low volume production and most likely .... people do not want to buy a single minded single purpose sportscar.



As for reliability ..... go hang out on the 4C-Forums. I'm @Braces over there too. Since the car's inception .... there's only a couple of major engine issues. Many members have tracked and modified their cars with no issues whatsoever.



Trust me. After a test drive .... you'll realize how raw and insane this car is. Make sure you're in dynamic or race mode and have the tranny in manual paddle mode.

The fact that the 4C is so raw and still isn't any lighter than a Miata is showing exactly how poorly optimized the 4C is. The carbon tub is also wasted on a dull shared engine with a shit gearbox. Sure the exhaust is loud on the 4C, but beyond that the engine isn't very exciting. Now that Mazda added 30hp to the ND I don't see any reason to pay twice as much for the 4C. At least with the 30K Miata you get a bespoke drivetrain with a properly revvy engine and one of the best manual gearboxes out there.

[new2subaru]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

The 4C is not that light as some might think. Manufacturer specs were given many times using a dry car. Ordinary vehicle curb weight is about 2,465 lb (1,118 kg) which is not remarkable at all given the size of the car and all the cost a carbon chassis can have on a collision situation. In many cases you will have to throw away the car since it'll not be reparable. I would say it is basically an engineering example of how to throw your money in the trash. If you guys really want a lightweight car with same dimensions, then I believe the best buy for money is currently the revised MX-5.

Reference: https://www.alfaromeousa.com/content...CSpider_SP.PDF

2,465 is the North American version and is still fairly light for a modern car.

I've been in both a MX-5 and a 4C and they couldn't be any further apart as far as performance goes. @Braces is right, the car was designed to do one thing "Rock your world" That's it. And it does it VERY well.

If anyone wants one they'd better get one now. These will become a collectors item, I'm sure.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

The fact that the 4C is so raw and still isn't any lighter than a Miata is showing exactly how poorly optimized the 4C is. The carbon tub is also wasted on a dull shared engine with a shit gearbox. Sure the exhaust is loud on the 4C, but beyond that the engine isn't very exciting. Now that Mazda added 30hp to the ND I don't see any reason to pay twice as much for the 4C. At least with the 30K Miata you get a bespoke drivetrain with a properly revvy engine and one of the best manual gearboxes out there.

That was indeed my point. It looks exotic, it sounds exotic (carbon!) but numbers say the opposite. If it was much much lighter than a Miata then things would be different, but fact is that it is heavier. Certain engineering decisions were entirely wrong here. Maybe not the carbon cockpit, but certainly something ...

I also don't see any reason with the +30hp on the revised Mazda to pay twice for the 4C.

[new2subaru]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

That was indeed my point. It looks exotic, it sounds exotic (carbon!) but numbers say the opposite. If it was much much lighter than a Miata then things would be different, but fact is that it is heavier. Certain engineering decisions were entirely wrong here. Maybe not the carbon cockpit, but certainly something ...

I also don't see any reason with the +30hp on the revised Mazda to pay twice for the 4C.

151ft/lbs compared to 238ft/lbs of torque that comes on very early. Almost the same. The FR-S is close too...

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by new2subaru

151ft/lbs compared to 238ft/lbs of torque that comes on very early. Almost the same. The FR-S is close too...