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Old 01-31-2023, 10:35 PM   #435
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It will felt like V8 considering the power/weight ratio
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Old 02-07-2023, 02:03 AM   #436
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While I'm really liking the engagement and feel of the kevlar clutch, and while I have no doubt that it will break in, I'm thinking the 450fwtq just or 360wtq will be hit or miss. I could go up to the ceramic disc, but I decided to go back to tried and true Exedy for the Stage 2 clutch. I'm currently selling my stage 1, and I'll sell this South Bend Stage 3 Endurance when I pull it. The Exedy three puck Stage 2 is under rated. If their Stage 1 can hold 300wtq, the Stage 2 three puck ceramic should hold much more, and I figure a three puck will hold more than the South Bend's Stage 3 Drag 6 puck clutch. I've read multiple posts of people claiming the Exedy Stage 2 has held up to 400wtq, and I believe it. On top of that, people say it is surprisingly tolerable and easy to drive, so I'm going to give it a go. I have Spring break on the week of 3/20, so I'll do the install then, and I'll get to the dyno once I have a chance to break it in.
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Old 02-16-2023, 08:58 PM   #437
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I pulled the tranny yesterday, got the flywheel resurfaced, and today I got everything back together. I will be putting the South Bend clutch up for sale. Hopefully this ceramic pucked clutch isn’t bad to drive and lives up to its 400wtq reputation. The South Bend was really a pleasure to drive. Probably the best I’ve had in terms of low noise and smooth engagement. The kevlar material was just so soft and forgiving, it is like someone slapping your face with a mink mitten. Like a cat swatting at another cat. Like felt stoppers on a soft close drawer. Like Charmen Comfort tissue on your backside. It can handle 300wtq and may get to 360wtq as rated with longer break in. Praying this ceramic works out. I will probably hold onto the South Bend clutch just in case until I know the Exedy Stage 2 works out.
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Old 02-25-2023, 01:38 PM   #438
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How's the new clutch?
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Old 02-26-2023, 01:21 AM   #439
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Originally Posted by funkjaw View Post
How's the new clutch?
The previous kevlar clutch is so butter smooth with engagement that going from that to anything else probably makes the perspective biased. I’m still babying the clutch by keeping it below 4k with low throttle inputs, so things might change with break in and different driving.

Shifting at speed in 2nd gear and up through the gears and back down feels like any one of their other clutches; it is fairly smooth and seamless like stock. First gear is a different beast. In order of engagement on a scale of 0-10 with a 0 being the smoothest and easiest to modulate and 10 being the hardest to modulate without chatter, the kevlar clutch is a 0-2, the OEM clutch is a 3-4, the Stage 1 is a 5, and this is like an 8. Sometimes it can be smooth, but most of the time it wants to chatter, and it is far from predictable. The Stage 1 and 2 and South Bend Stage 3 Endurance all use the same Exedy pressure plate, which is a little firmer than the base OEM Exedy plate, so that isn’t bad. The initial bite during gear shifts at speed is so similar, but the ceramic is first and then Stage 1 and OEM is next and the kevlar is the least.

All the other clutches want to engage in a linear way in first gear; with them, it is easy to find a spot to feather and slip the clutch; it is only when they are barely engaged with moderate gas that those clutches want to chatter; engage it too much without gas, and the engine wants to stall.

With the ceramic material, slowly release the clutch pedal, and the clutch wants to bite earlier, but a little gas makes it want to slip free and chatter. Release it to the slip point of the others, and there is enough bite that it wants to grab and lug the motor. Add more gas, and it’ll bite, but then break free again, which sometimes ends in chatter, but sometimes it can be modulated to be smooth. The kevlar and ceramic materials hold up to heat well, and I’m still learning the nature of this clutch, but sometimes I think it is better with a little heat into it that the bite of a cold clutch, and other times I feel like back to back slipping the clutch like reversing then pulling forward just increases the chatter risk.

I’ll have to review it again in another 500-1000 miles. On another note, I found a loose hose clamp from the first clutch change that I forgot about. I think the kevlar clutch was slipping on the dyno, but I’m realizing now that it could have been a boost leak beyond 12psi. It may have been the case that the kevlar clutch was holding things fine. Regardless, I think the clutch change was a good move for going for more torque. Overall, I probably would have needed the grip of a ceramic clutch, and it isn’t terrible to live with, and similar at speed. Luckily I don’t have a highway bumper to bumper commute or any hills, or I would be regretting the ceramic at this time. It is manageable, but not enjoyable. Hopefully it breaks in better, and I can learn how to feather it perfectly.
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Old 02-26-2023, 06:38 AM   #440
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Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
The previous kevlar clutch is so butter smooth with engagement that going from that to anything else probably makes the perspective biased. I’m still babying the clutch by keeping it below 4k with low throttle inputs, so things might change with break in and different driving.

Shifting at speed in 2nd gear and up through the gears and back down feels like any one of their other clutches; it is fairly smooth and seamless like stock. First gear is a different beast. In order of engagement on a scale of 0-10 with a 0 being the smoothest and easiest to modulate and 10 being the hardest to modulate without chatter, the kevlar clutch is a 0-2, the OEM clutch is a 3-4, the Stage 1 is a 5, and this is like an 8. Sometimes it can be smooth, but most of the time it wants to chatter, and it is far from predictable. The Stage 1 and 2 and South Bend Stage 3 Endurance all use the same Exedy pressure plate, which is a little firmer than the base OEM Exedy plate, so that isn’t bad. The initial bite during gear shifts at speed is so similar, but the ceramic is first and then Stage 1 and OEM is next and the kevlar is the least.

All the other clutches want to engage in a linear way in first gear; with them, it is easy to find a spot to feather and slip the clutch; it is only when they are barely engaged with moderate gas that those clutches want to chatter; engage it too much without gas, and the engine wants to stall.

With the ceramic material, slowly release the clutch pedal, and the clutch wants to bite earlier, but a little gas makes it want to slip free and chatter. Release it to the slip point of the others, and there is enough bite that it wants to grab and lug the motor. Add more gas, and it’ll bite, but then break free again, which sometimes ends in chatter, but sometimes it can be modulated to be smooth. The kevlar and ceramic materials hold up to heat well, and I’m still learning the nature of this clutch, but sometimes I think it is better with a little heat into it that the bite of a cold clutch, and other times I feel like back to back slipping the clutch like reversing then pulling forward just increases the chatter risk.

I’ll have to review it again in another 500-1000 miles. On another note, I found a loose hose clamp from the first clutch change that I forgot about. I think the kevlar clutch was slipping on the dyno, but I’m realizing now that it could have been a boost leak beyond 12psi. It may have been the case that the kevlar clutch was holding things fine. Regardless, I think the clutch change was a good move for going for more torque. Overall, I probably would have needed the grip of a ceramic clutch, and it isn’t terrible to live with, and similar at speed. Luckily I don’t have a highway bumper to bumper commute or any hills, or I would be regretting the ceramic at this time. It is manageable, but not enjoyable. Hopefully it breaks in better, and I can learn how to feather it perfectly.
I have the Exedy stage 2 3 puck disc and was too afraid to install. Having driven a 6 puck before, didn't want the jumpy first gear when this car is already so jumpy in first. Looking forward to more of your experiences!
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Old 02-26-2023, 12:35 PM   #441
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I have the Exedy stage 2 3 puck disc and was too afraid to install. Having driven a 6 puck before, didn't want the jumpy first gear when this car is already so jumpy in first. Looking forward to more of your experiences!
I’m thinking it will break in more. If you do a lot of hills or bumper to bumper then it might be an issue. Taking off from a traffic light or doing rolling transitions through a parking lot isn’t bad. It is mostly low speed crawling from a stop where clutch slip and 0-10% throttle is problematic.

Considering the Stage 1 held 300tq fine and only slipped around 315-325wtq+ for me when overboosting suggests this should hold the 400wtq people claim just fine.
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Old 02-26-2023, 01:29 PM   #442
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First gear is a different beast. In order of engagement on a scale of 0-10 with a 0 being the smoothest and easiest to modulate and 10 being the hardest to modulate without chatter, the kevlar clutch is a 0-2, the OEM clutch is a 3-4, the Stage 1 is a 5, and this is like an 8. Sometimes it can be smooth, but most of the time it wants to chatter, and it is far from predictable. The Stage 1 and 2 and South Bend Stage 3 Endurance all use the same Exedy pressure plate, which is a little firmer than the base OEM Exedy plate, so that isn’t bad. The initial bite during gear shifts at speed is so similar, but the ceramic is first and then Stage 1 and OEM is next and the kevlar is the least
Have you experienced the exedy stage 1 clutch /pressure plate? and where would you put it on this scale? is it the same as SB stage 1 (I'm guessing probably it was made by exedy anyways with maybe pressure plate mod)
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Old 02-26-2023, 04:43 PM   #443
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Have you experienced the exedy stage 1 clutch /pressure plate? and where would you put it on this scale? is it the same as SB stage 1 (I'm guessing probably it was made by exedy anyways with maybe pressure plate mod)
When I say stage 1 and stage 2 above, I’m referring to the Exedy clutches. I had an OEM Exedy, their Stage 1 and now their Stage 2. Before their Stage 2, I had a South Bend Stage 3 Endurance, which uses the same Exedy Stage 1+2 pressure plate with their modifications, but the only modifications I can see is the paint. The springs and hardware all look identical.

The South Bend Stage 2 clutches seem to use the stock clutch plate with different discs. The Stage 3 uses the same Exedy Stage 1 and Stage 2 pressure plate with different discs.

South Bend has some pricey products. I don’t know how universal some of these clutch discs are because I’ve seen some shared stock photos across different brands probably rebranding different products from the same manufacturers. Depending on your numbers, the Exedy Stage 1 holds 300wtq and is probably one of the cheapest ones out there and most like the OEM Exedy in our cars.

I have my Exedy Stage 1 for sale, if you are interested. I’d let my South Bend go too if you or anyone is interested; I haven’t put it online because I might go back to it if this Stage 2 Exedy one doesn’t break in well, and if my commute changes, but I doubt either will happen.
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Old 03-02-2023, 05:29 PM   #444
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Update on the Exedy Stage 2 clutch: After a hundred city miles, the temperamental nature and chattering at low, crawling speeds with trying to slip the clutch on or off low throttle has significantly reduced, as if the clutch has bed in better and worn away some initial high points causing unpredictable grip. It is making the drivability at low speeds much more tolerable. I’m looking forward to breaking it in more, hopeful that it will be that much better.
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Old 05-24-2023, 03:50 PM   #445
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Update:

The ceramic clutch is not the most streetable clutch in first gear at low speeds or on hills. It never really improved after 1200 miles significantly. It is what it is. Trying to slip the clutch, it wants to grab and skip/hop and chatter. It doesn't want to slide. At speed, the shifting feels normal.

My problem is the clutch isn't holding the power. I'm at like 12-13psi, and I'm at 412whp and over 300wtq, and it can hold at times. It tends to hold in lower gears, and I don't know if that is just because the car revs straight through a torque peak, and when it is in fifth or sixth gear the torque load is hanging more in a peak, and then the clutch slips. Sometimes it catches and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it seems like it needs more heat, and other times, it seems like back to back pulls if it slips then it wants to slip again, so it is a little hard to figure out.

At this point, I'm not sure if this is expected, but I'm aware of other people/tuners getting close to 400wtq out of this. The flywheel is bolted on solid and so is the pressure plate. The flywheel was resurfaced, so I'm not sure if my car might just be the outlier for what this clutch can hold.

I would love to go with a twin disc clutch that is organic, but I don't think it is possible unless I can get some company to make something custom.
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Old 07-05-2023, 02:10 PM   #446
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Update:

The clutch may have crossed a threshold of being worn in because it seems to be holding and not slipping. I don't know if this is a reflection of it wearing in more (2-3k miles) or if it was the warm weather or something completely unrelated, but it was nice hammering it through the canyons for a few hours yesterday without issues. I can sit in 5th or 6th and get into the gas without it wanting to slip under load. I'll report back if this is permanent or transient. In the long run, the car will need a twin clutch and CD009 or something to handle more power, but for now, things are heading in a livable direction.
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Old 07-21-2023, 02:50 AM   #447
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Fiftieth Million Clutch Update:

The clutch still wants to slip at WOT, especially in high gears under lots of load. I think it was just pulling timing and reducing power on the hot day, which is why it wasn't slipping then.

There is still some harmonics in the car around 3k-4k rpms, even with the driveshaft change to the two piece stock setup, so I don't know if the harmonics are causing the clutch system to vibrate enough to lose grip or what. It is odd because Kpower and other FA20 owners are pulling more torque than me with the same clutches. I don't think it is that my flywheel was machined wrong or anything, but it is a possibility. The odd thing it happened on both clutch kits I bought, so either the dyno I was on was conservative, and I'm making more torque, or there is something off with my setup.

The options are the TOB is applying pressure to the pressure plate all the time to some degree. I don't think this is likely because I've used a borescope to look, and the TOB isn't engaged, and it doesn't feel like it is engaged. If it was then it would likely lock me out of first. The other option is that my pressure plate came machined wrong and then was machined/resurfaced wrong, but I don't think this is the case. My stage 1 was working fine, but beginning to fail me at my numbers, and the other two clutch kits should have held significantly more torque, but didn't. What changed? Nothing really.

Regardless, I am taking this to the next level and moving forward with a twin clutch. The AZ6 doesn't hold up well on the track because of heat and maybe lateral G's cause the 4th gear to fail, but I've seen people rocking north of 500whp on this transmission. Maybe I'll do a CD009 or something someday, but for right now, I just want something much stronger that will hold the power up to the basic limits of my setup right now. I want to go back to the dyno and see if I can push the stock motor a little further with the injectors I have to 450whp and 350wtq+.

I have purchased a second flywheel from Kpower, which has been shipped directly to Clutch Masters Industries; this way my car isn't down, as I wait for a clutch to be built. I reached out to Exedy, OS Giken, Competition Clutch, etc., and I did get replies from a few companies, but Kevin over at Clutch Masters has been willing to provide a custom product.

I'll be either going with their standard FX750 7.25'' twin disc clutch kit, or if he believes a 8.5'' will fit then I will be going with their FX850 Strapped DLX Street twin disc clutch kit with a custom steel flywheel. OS Giken makes a 8.5'' that fits the FA20, so with our slip flywheel and extra spacer, I don't think theirs should be a problem. The Strapped DLX should be the most streetable, while being more than capable of handling the power in any situation. I might need to switch to a hydraulic TOB with this setup. We will see.

I feel like if I can pull off all of these things then the car will be 95% ideal, and I will keep the car much longer and enjoy my driving experience.

Clutch Masters Twin Disc
https://clutchmasters.com/p-35859-tw...utch-kits.html

OS Giken TOB
https://osgikenusa.com/products/ty421-bf5
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Old 07-25-2023, 08:10 AM   #448
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I'll be either going with their standard FX750 7.25'' twin disc clutch kit, or if he believes a 8.5'' will fit then I will be going with their FX850 Strapped DLX Street twin disc clutch kit with a custom steel flywheel. OS Giken makes a 8.5'' that fits the FA20, so with our slip flywheel and extra spacer, I don't think theirs should be a problem. The Strapped DLX should be the most streetable, while being more than capable of handling the power in any situation. I might need to switch to a hydraulic TOB with this setup. We will see.

I feel like if I can pull off all of these things then the car will be 95% ideal, and I will keep the car much longer and enjoy my driving experience.

Clutch Masters Twin Disc
https://clutchmasters.com/p-35859-tw...utch-kits.html

OS Giken TOB
https://osgikenusa.com/products/ty421-bf5
curious how the twin disk goes. Currently running a FX350 on my FA20 w/Steel Flywheel and I have some pretty awful harmonics 2500-3500 on both accel and decel (decel being much worse). To the point I want to rip it out. Might be worth a ping to Kevin to see if he as any thoughts, but going twin disk has crossed my mind. Though all I see is the 725 offered for FA20s unless it's just a call away to inquire about something different
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