follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Delicious Tuning
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum - FT86CLUB > Technical Topics > Engine, Exhaust, Transmission

Engine, Exhaust, Transmission Discuss the FR-S | 86 | BRZ engine, exhaust and drivetrain.


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-08-2020, 05:12 PM   #43
J1Avs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Drives: 2018 BRZ tS
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 396
Thanks: 239
Thanked 231 Times in 125 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by StraightOuttaCanadaEh View Post
even more impressive then that you gained 30 hp. Usually that's the expected gain from a fully catless setup
Definitely no complaints, but that's also the value of going to one of the top tuners for this platform. I still run the UQFQ, but I'm now running the JRSC with the PTuning Header and PTuning Flex Fuel Kit
J1Avs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2020, 06:24 PM   #44
deca
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Drives: Halo 860
Location: Michigan
Posts: 38
Thanks: 8
Thanked 13 Times in 9 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
I know I'm late here, but yeah header+tune on my 2017 made a very noticeable difference. I also have a catback and can confirm that it's pretty much just noise, I feel like it might have improved throttle response a tiny bit but have nothing to back that up and it's probably just in my head.

I would suggest starting off with just OFT if you're on the fence at all or can't swing a catless header. I never ran the tune without the header, but from what I've heard it still does a very good job of evening out the torque dip.

Also kind of agree with what was said about EL vs UEL headers earlier in the thread. I went with an UEL, and while I do love the sound of it with my Tanabe I'll probably end up switching to a 4-2-1 EL as my build becomes more track oriented. Even if UEL improves the weak midrange better than EL, it seems to be leaving more potent gains on the table in order to address something you can often avoid via your driving. Probably better to exaggerate the engine's strengths rather than try to make up for its weaknesses?

But then I guess you get into the argument of focusing on the gains you see every day in street driving vs maximizing the performance of the car running all out. Anyway, I'm still learning a lot here and certainly not an expert!
deca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2020, 08:33 PM   #45
Bodalenko
Steve Bodalenko
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Drives: Toyota 86 GTS
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 184
Thanks: 28
Thanked 29 Times in 23 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grady View Post
Sorry there is no catted header out there that will give you 15hp.
Hundred percent correct, and the only header to put on if you’re serious about power increase, and not for ‘look @ me’ points with an UEL, is an EL header!
Bodalenko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2020, 11:17 PM   #46
86MLR
Senior Member
 
86MLR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Drives: 2002 VX Commodore SS LS1 Auto
Location: Sydney
Posts: 1,973
Thanks: 390
Thanked 1,780 Times in 942 Posts
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by deca View Post
I know I'm late here, but yeah header+tune on my 2017 made a very noticeable difference. I also have a catback and can confirm that it's pretty much just noise, I feel like it might have improved throttle response a tiny bit but have nothing to back that up and it's probably just in my head.

I would suggest starting off with just OFT if you're on the fence at all or can't swing a catless header. I never ran the tune without the header, but from what I've heard it still does a very good job of evening out the torque dip.

Also kind of agree with what was said about EL vs UEL headers earlier in the thread. I went with an UEL, and while I do love the sound of it with my Tanabe I'll probably end up switching to a 4-2-1 EL as my build becomes more track oriented. Even if UEL improves the weak midrange better than EL, it seems to be leaving more potent gains on the table in order to address something you can often avoid via your driving. Probably better to exaggerate the engine's strengths rather than try to make up for its weaknesses?

But then I guess you get into the argument of focusing on the gains you see every day in street driving vs maximizing the performance of the car running all out. Anyway, I'm still learning a lot here and certainly not an expert!
I have not seen a catless UEL header improve the midrange over a catless EL header.

I believe ACE is the only company that gives you options to more suit your setup.

No matter how good marketing is, my money is on fluid and thermal dynamics.

Because physics.

Have a read

https://www.onallcylinders.com/2015/...header-tuning/
__________________
Disclaimer: This post represents the official views of the voices in my head at the time of posting.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133311
I'm only here for the biscuits
86MLR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2020, 02:30 AM   #47
Captain Snooze
Because compromise ®
 
Captain Snooze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Drives: Red Herring
Location: australia
Posts: 5,596
Thanks: 2,645
Thanked 5,292 Times in 2,517 Posts
Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by 86MLR View Post
No matter how good marketing is, my money is on fluid
.


Name:  5y4.jpg
Views: 422
Size:  100.6 KB
__________________
My car is completely stock except for all the mods.

Captain Snooze is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Captain Snooze For This Useful Post:
86MLR (01-19-2020)
Old 01-19-2020, 03:19 AM   #48
tomm.brz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Drives: brz 2017
Location: italy
Posts: 1,274
Thanks: 297
Thanked 455 Times in 373 Posts
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by 86MLR View Post
I have not seen a catless UEL header improve the midrange over a catless EL header.

I believe ACE is the only company that gives you options to more suit your setup.

No matter how good marketing is, my money is on fluid and thermal dynamics.

Because physics.

Have a read

https://www.onallcylinders.com/2015/...header-tuning/
tomei uel gives a lot better midrange than tomei el for example
tomm.brz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2020, 06:38 AM   #49
86MLR
Senior Member
 
86MLR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Drives: 2002 VX Commodore SS LS1 Auto
Location: Sydney
Posts: 1,973
Thanks: 390
Thanked 1,780 Times in 942 Posts
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomm.brz View Post
tomei uel gives a lot better midrange than tomei el for example
Personal experience?

Were both tuned to suit the headers?

Same vehicle?

Same tuning software?

I've not seen it, apart from internet dyno plots, from different cars, I have seen a EL header tuned to outperform a UEL header throughout the rev range though.

Same car, same tuner.

When I first had my car tuned I asked my tuner what header design I should go with, he said only get a UEL header if you want "the boxer rumble", IIRC he recommend a SME or an ACE.

I did pick up a Tomei UEL cheap and gave it a go out of curiosity, (costly mistake) as he said, no additional gains anywhere in the midrange, it was obnoxiously loud though and lasted about 2 weeks before I went back to the decated OEM, with the added noise and lack of any performance gain it was a no brainer to revert back.

I do currently run a UEL header now though, as the best option for me, for numerous reasons, was the AVO turbo, the turbo does muffle most of the additional noise though.

Plus the first basic mod for an EJ25, I had a 2015 STI, is to install a EL header which gives more everywhere when tuned to suit.

A Killer B 4:1 holy header is the pick over all UEL headers.

In saying all this the "dip" was never a issue for me, even when the car was stock, plodding around town I never noticed it, and if was up it my RPM was never that low to be in the so called hole.

My over opinionated opinion is still that the whole after market UEL header thing is good marketing.

As always, opinions may vary.

__________________
Disclaimer: This post represents the official views of the voices in my head at the time of posting.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133311
I'm only here for the biscuits
86MLR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2020, 07:48 AM   #50
tomm.brz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Drives: brz 2017
Location: italy
Posts: 1,274
Thanks: 297
Thanked 455 Times in 373 Posts
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
I do not have the dyno of tomeis headers, but I should find the logs I have of cars with tomei el and uel
EL has an obvious torque dip, clearly visible from the engine load, fuel quantity total and maf voltage curves in the log
Tomei Uel is almost flat on the dip zone, not as much as cs400 and 350 ace headers

But i have this dyno of 2 cars
same dyno, same day, same tuner, same exact fuel 100ron, SAME AFR, same front lambda scaling, same tuning overall (PI/DI ratio, DI injection angle, PI scaling, etc)
the ignition timing in both car, are maximized to knock limit

Differences are:
-bold line: hks UEL , front hks decatted
-thin line: skunk2 EL 4:1, stock front catted



In this particular Bapro Dyno, a stock car pulls around 130whp peak, and 174-175 calculated bhp

as you say, opinions may vary
tomm.brz is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to tomm.brz For This Useful Post:
AnalogMan (01-21-2020)
Old 01-24-2020, 06:45 AM   #51
vagthomas
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Drives: Toyota GT86
Location: Greece
Posts: 68
Thanks: 40
Thanked 39 Times in 20 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Totally worth the money! Check mine's before and after (torque and power on wheels).


HKS Catted header, AVO overpipe, HKS dual resonanted Frontpipe and tuned on ECUTEK. Gained torque within all RPM Range while consumption decreased! Its a totally different car. Definitely worth it!
Attached Images
 
vagthomas is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to vagthomas For This Useful Post:
tomm.brz (01-24-2020)
Old 03-30-2020, 11:53 AM   #52
nikitopo
Senior Member
 
nikitopo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Drives: 2015 Subaru BRZ
Location: York
Posts: 2,933
Thanks: 1,812
Thanked 1,388 Times in 938 Posts
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnalogMan View Post
I've been mulling over what I might do to extract a little more power from the 2019 BRZ I just bought. I've been thinking about a couple of modest changes, keeping it NA, a UEL catted header (from FT86), exhaust (probably Perrin), drop in air filter, and a tune (OFT or ECUTek). Nothing drastic, just some little things to perk it up a bit.

After reading the tons of great material here, I'm getting the impression that these changes achieve greater benefit on pre-2017 cars, and the 2017+ cars show less benefit (because of redesigned header, etc.).

I'm not expecting a dramatic difference in power or the shape of the power curve, but I also don't want to throw money away on things that won't improve the 'seat of pants' feel.

For those of you with 2017+ cars, do you think a header and tune are worthwhile? Or are the improvements too small to be worth it on newer cars?

Thank you!
A bit old topic and maybe you made already a decision. I had the old factory header and installed the redesigned one. The new header gives a bit more on top, but it doesn't do much to solve the torque dip "issue". Apparently, factory didn't consider it as a real issue (it can be avoided if you are in the correct gear) or it was a combination of fuel economy and emission regulations. If the torque dip bothers you, then you should change the header. If not, then I would say that it is not worth the time and effort.
nikitopo is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to nikitopo For This Useful Post:
AnalogMan (04-03-2020), mrg666 (03-30-2020)
Old 03-30-2020, 01:10 PM   #53
churchx
Senior Member
 
churchx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Drives: 2014 orange GT86
Location: Latvia, Riga
Posts: 3,757
Thanks: 526
Thanked 1,732 Times in 1,193 Posts
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
It's not that factory didn't consider torque dip as issue. They considered being able to certify car/exhaust for latest emission standards, for car to be allowed to sell, not having to add to price sums to pay for gov't for (if) more polluting car, to be more important then fitting exhaust of more efficient power-gains wise and fixing that "torque dip issue", but which in these days can be sold as "for offroad use only". You are modding/changing/decreasing catalisator (especially cold-starts) efficiency on your own. See nothing wrong with factory choosing different given legal constraints and see nothing to blame toyobaru for.
churchx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2020, 01:43 PM   #54
nikitopo
Senior Member
 
nikitopo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Drives: 2015 Subaru BRZ
Location: York
Posts: 2,933
Thanks: 1,812
Thanked 1,388 Times in 938 Posts
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
The updated factory header makes the dip even worse and this is not because it makes the car greener and with better emissions. We couldn't get it in Europe and we still have the old one, so it is not greener. It looks that there were also other priorities, like having a better top end performance. It has been said a couple of times even by official people. Not that big of an issue if someone knows how to use the available power band.
nikitopo is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to nikitopo For This Useful Post:
mrg666 (04-03-2020)
Old 04-03-2020, 12:42 AM   #55
saltywetman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Drives: 2020 Toyota 86 GT 6M
Location: Edmonton, AB
Posts: 134
Thanks: 69
Thanked 54 Times in 28 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikitopo View Post
The updated factory header makes the dip even worse and this is not because it makes the car greener and with better emissions. We couldn't get it in Europe and we still have the old one, so it is not greener. It looks that there were also other priorities, like having a better top end performance. It has been said a couple of times even by official people. Not that big of an issue if someone knows how to use the available power band.
Yep I remember watching the everyday driver video when they compared pre '17 with a '17 model and Todd immediately stated that he felt that they made the torque dip worse (dip happens across an even wider RPM range)
saltywetman is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to saltywetman For This Useful Post:
mrg666 (04-03-2020), nikitopo (04-03-2020)
Old 04-03-2020, 12:09 PM   #56
AnalogMan
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Drives: 2019 BRZ Limited 6 speed
Location: New England
Posts: 78
Thanks: 131
Thanked 99 Times in 40 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikitopo View Post
A bit old topic and maybe you made already a decision. I had the old factory header and installed the redesigned one. The new header gives a bit more on top, but it doesn't do much to solve the torque dip "issue". Apparently, factory didn't consider it as a real issue (it can be avoided if you are in the correct gear) or it was a combination of fuel economy and emission regulations. If the torque dip bothers you, then you should change the header. If not, then I would say that it is not worth the time and effort.
Thank you! No, I haven't moved forward yet (the coronavirus has thrown a big monkey wrench into pretty much everything). I was leaning towards a catted header, but after talking with a local speed shop, am now leaning towards a catless UEL header, probably JDL, possibly Tomei (I'd like a Gruppe-S, but they seem to be hard to get in the US).

I'll also add a catback exhaust, just for the sound, either a Perrin 2.5" or maybe Nividia R400. Not planning any other changes except for a Blitz drop-in air filter.

But, everything is on hold for now...
AnalogMan is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to AnalogMan For This Useful Post:
nikitopo (04-03-2020)
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Join us for Gizdich Ranch Pie Run 7 (2019) -- Sat Aug 17, 2019 PMok Northern California 11 08-20-2019 11:17 PM
2019 Fiesta ST or 2019 Subaru BRZ korhun Subaru BRZ General Forum 97 08-02-2019 08:56 AM
Would you prefer 2019 Toyota TRD or 2019 Subaru BRZ limited Busybee Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum 64 02-24-2019 12:05 PM
Is 75% tint worthwhile? (PA) nalc NY / NJ / CT / PA 10 07-31-2013 04:13 PM
Earth Harness Systems, Worthwhile or not? Panman Engine, Exhaust, Transmission 5 04-23-2013 05:32 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.