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Old 11-21-2013, 05:03 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k View Post
Well the thing is, until the rear end started sliding just as I was entering the elevation drop the car was doing just fine, plenty of grip. I wasn't tracking out much to the right during my time on course as I was having a difficult time visually placing that side of the car. I never was concerned about sliding off course to the infield. As I felt the rear sliding I thought thought if I maintained steady inputs it would settle down. Of course, my mind wasn't factoring in the further loss of grip from the elevation drop...so there ya go.
Yeah the elevation drop would definitely change things.
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Old 11-22-2013, 01:01 AM   #114
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I appreciate all the above comments. As to a new car I've been brainstorming about that since last week. To be honest I think I'm going to finally pull the trigger on a Cayman S.

Cool!

And while I don't know what your wish for power might be, in that same price range, take a look at the new 2014 Corvette Stingray Z51. While the quality won't be up to Porsche standards, that is one VERY interesting car. Give it a look and see what you think. Just reckon that the DUES you pay to own the 'Vette is to have it in the shop more than maybe most other cars you might choose. Could be worth it, though.
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Old 11-22-2013, 02:21 AM   #115
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Out of curiosity, when you saying "pinching it in at turn exit", are you talking about not unwinding the steering fully on track out?
Good question as that was ambiguous, wasn't it? Thanks for asking.

No, "pinching it in" means (to me) to apply MORE STEERING LOCK, i.e. turn the wheel even more into the turn. That would effectively make the end of that turn a decreasing radius requiring more steering lock to make it around.

On this turn at VIR, Turn 10, that can prove disastrous ... as our friend @WolfpackS2k would like to tell you.

Indeed, I think everyone who sees his video and who subsequently drives there, will thank him for sharing. His experience drives home the point that Randy Pobst was clearly trying to make. Watch that again and look carefully at Randy's eyes and listen to the tone of his voice. He's quite serious about not making this kind of mistake at that corner at VIR.

Now, in most instances, one can slightly pinch it in at corner exit, having failed to nail the line, and it is of no great consequence. It just tells us that we've turned in too early.

Sometimes, though, if, as often happens, a driver has not only turned in too early, but he ALSO charged in especially fast ... then when he tries to pinch it in when running wide at corner exit (to avoid running onto the grass), he may find himself spinning right in front of the pack.

Oi!

It happens all the time.

They pinch it in, and induce a slide that puts them sideways on to the onrushing traffic!

Have I mentioned what a "squirt-worthy moment" is?

Quote:
It does look like there was room to track out more fully to the right in that video, which I assume might have prevented a spin.
It seems likely, doesn't it?

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So if you've turned in too early and realize you will run wide at corner exit, I can see you'd want to track out fully to have the best chance of staying on pavement.
Yes. But not only to stay on the pavement. We ALSO want to keep it pointed in the right direction, don't we?!

Spinning sideways and parking it in the middle of the track will probably upset you as you watch everyone else bearing down upon you, scattering wildly to avoid T-boning you. (And if you survive, it's back to the pits for a fresh pair of Depends. )

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But if you don't have room to track out anymore and will still run wide...
As you become more competent, skilled, and confident ... that WILL happen, I promise. It is impossible that it won't.

I've mentioned the human propensity to turn in early. I should also point out that this propensity increases exponentially as your entry speed goes up! LOL!

You'll see, my friend.

It's all part of the learning process.

The trick is to SURVIVE that learning process!

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are you saying you shouldn't "pinch in"
I am indeed. Time and experience will -- hopefully -- teach you when and where you can still pinch it in, and where you need to allow your car to run wide, right off onto the grass.

If you find, as many do, that you just cannot seem to judge that reliably, then that's a sign that you may be approaching your own personal limits. It's not easy, despite the fact that the best make it look easy. It is not. God most certainly did NOT create all men equal. (White men can't jump. They even made an excellent movie about it. )

And if there is a solid WALL out at track's edge? Well, my friend, you should have thought more about THAT before you commited your car at this speed, eh?

Motor racing is dangerous, and actions have consequences. This may be the day you die.

As the speeds pick up, a car, once committed to a given line ... is going to go where it's going to go, willy nilly, whether you like it or not. That's how people get killed in motorsports.

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(assuming I'm understanding that word correctly)? In other words, you shouldn't decrease the amount you unwind the wheel on track out in an effort to keep it on pavement?
Sort of. See above for actual "pinching in."

But, yes, I'm saying that making the mistake that Wolf made can prove quite troublesome ... as he would like to tell you. (We need to help him not do that in his new Cayman S.)

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I'm asking because I think my natural response in that situation (if by apex I knew I was going to run wide at exit) is to not roll on the throttle on corner exit and to pinch in.
SeeEE?! What did I just tell you? This happens OFTEN, and this is WHY. Precisely because one's natural instincts are often the wrong thing to do at the limit.

The trick to learning to drive fast and well ... is to avoid being killed during the learning process. If it were easy, we'd all be Jackie Stewart or whomever you fancy.

Countless wannabes are injured and even killed in their quest to become pro racing drivers. Far fewer today than in decades past, but still, ya' gotta be careful out there because even on today's sanitized and safe tracks, you can still get hurt.

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And once I got the car positioned correctly, to get back on the throttle. I don't see how this would cause a spin or be dangerous, but I'm probably missing something here.
At your current level, consequences may still be trivial. As the speeds increase, and you push the limits more, what was once inconsequential may prove to be fatal. Keep that in mind as you learn and progress.

Motor racing is dangerous.

You saw what happened to Wolf, right?

It all depends on how close to the limit you are. You can pretty much make every mistake in the book at 30 mph without fear.

We can all learn to get through the really slow bits every bit as well as Ayrton Senna. As the speeds pick up, and the limits grow higher, it becomes increasingly difficult to extract the maximum from the car ... and still bring it back to the pits in one piece.

That's why some people are paid 25 million dollars and up to drive race cars. They are capable of doing it all at levels far above what we can manage. It's like any other sport -- the best are just better. Jim Clark was God's gift to motorsport.

Consider attending a quality racing school. Despite the expense, it can help a budding racer to avoid developing bad habits.

And it's always possible that you will never be comfortable traveling fast enough that some of these things become serious issues. There's no shame in that. Driving has absolutely nothing to do with your manhood, bravery, and other such nonsense. It's skill, just like any other, say, Olympian's skill. To be really good, requires that you have picked the best parents, you know?

Jim Clark was just that much better than the others, as was Stirling Moss, Fangio, and so on.

My point is that this should be fun, and to keep it that way, I encourage everyone to learn their OWN limits as well as the car's.

Keep it fun and keep it on the road.

Just because driving is an activity common to most everyone, does not mean that everyone can drive equally well. You're not pitching in the World Series or quarterbacking a team in the Super Bowl. And that's not just for lack of desire.

We must each learn to respect our own limits. And remember that in baseball you just walk too many batters and/or get hit out of the park. And you're benched.

In motorsports you may end up being "benched" in a coffin.

Have fun out there, but be mindful of the risks.
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Old 11-22-2013, 08:19 AM   #116
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@Porsche

Thanks, that was a good explanation. Now that I understand what you meant by "pinching in" (more steering lock, not a partial unwind of the wheel on track out), that makes sense.

And I agree on it being dangerous to outdrive one's talent/experience. At the end of the day, there's no Ferrari contract waiting for most of us, but if we crash in the quest to shave laptimes, it'll be a very expensive and potentially fatal experience. Sobering truth about hobby vs. profession.
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Old 11-22-2013, 10:06 AM   #117
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Not sure if someone asked this yet, but did you do the sequence to disable the electronic brake force distribution prior to your run? It's ridiculous how many nannies come with sports cars these days.
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Old 11-22-2013, 01:36 PM   #118
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I had traction & stability control disabled during this session, but no I did not perform the pedal dance to 100% shut everything down.
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Old 11-22-2013, 03:04 PM   #119
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I had traction & stability control disabled during this session, but no I did not perform the pedal dance to 100% shut everything down.
Checking my understanding: The electronic brake force distribution system only operates when you apply the brakes, right? Does it only reduce brake force or can it also add brake force? How does it determine what is needed?
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Old 11-22-2013, 03:05 PM   #120
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Checking my understanding: The electronic brake force distribution system only operates when you apply the brakes, right? Does it only reduce brake force or can it also add brake force? How does it determine what is needed?
My understanding....

Wheelspeed sensors. It can adjust pressure through the ABS pump to each channel.
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Old 11-22-2013, 06:28 PM   #121
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My understanding....

Wheelspeed sensors. It can adjust pressure through the ABS pump to each channel.
Toyota.com/safety says it is part of the anti-lock braking system which "reduces brake pressure on wheels carrying the least amount of weight."

This sounds like more than just wheelspeed inputs. Which leads me to another question, since it's part of the ABS system, does it only work when ABS is active?
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Old 12-04-2013, 01:00 PM   #122
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Thumbs up

It's not that I don't like you guys, but I will probably be moving on and not getting another Twin

I still don't have the money from the insurance company but that process is fully in motion.

Gonna patiently search for a Cayman S in my price range with the options I want (Sport Chrono, PASM, Xenon headlights).
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Old 12-04-2013, 01:22 PM   #123
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Gonna patiently search for a Cayman S in my price range with the options I want (Sport Chrono, PASM, Xenon headlights).
Why do you want Sport Chrono (the wart) and PASM if you don't mind me asking? Porsche wouldn't let me option PASM on my Cayman R because it was inferior to the suspension the car came with. I think Sport Chrono is only really useful with a PDK because it adds another mode.
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Old 12-04-2013, 01:33 PM   #124
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The Cayman R's suspension was different than the Cayman S's suspension (fairly certain of that). A PASM equipped Cayman S's suspension is stiffer and 1/2 inch lower to the ground (compared to a normal Cayman S). Additionally in normal mode the suspension is softer than a non-PASM equipped Cayman. PASM also helps with anti-dive under braking and a wide variety of other parameters (see this for additional info: http://www.caymanregister.org/faq.php?faq=options ) And Sport Chrono does indeed have a "sport" setting, but it is useful on all models, not just PDK equipped ones. (further info about that is also available at the above link).

I suppose at the right price neither of the above are deal breakers, but I would think about it.
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Old 12-04-2013, 01:36 PM   #125
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I suppose at the right price neither of the above are deal breakers, but I would think about it.
I would spend the money saved by not having those options to upgrade the suspension and buy a stopwatch.
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Old 12-04-2013, 03:44 PM   #126
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Maybe if I was buying new
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