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GR86 General Topics (2nd Gen 2022+ Toyota 86) General topics for the GR86 second-gen 86


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Old 01-09-2022, 09:17 PM   #15
racingfool
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Originally Posted by RZNT4R View Post
The aluminium knuckles by themselves are probably not better or worse
I respectfully disagree.
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Originally Posted by PBR View Post
Aluminum provides better NVH as well as less unsprung weight.
As long as they don't prove to be a weak link, think I would have to go with the BRZ.
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Old 01-09-2022, 09:43 PM   #16
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I respectfully disagree.

As long as they don't prove to be a weak link, think I would have to go with the BRZ.
There's definitely a pro to the steel knuckle holding up better to abuse. Most likely cheaper to replace if damaged I'd imagine. Who knows? I'm now seeing the aluminum knuckle is having aftermarket brake fitment problems. So maybe that came into play also. I preferred aluminum but not really that big of a deal
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Old 01-09-2022, 10:09 PM   #17
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yeah most gen 1 bbk's are compatible with the gr86 but not the brz cuz of the knuckle.
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Old 01-10-2022, 06:52 PM   #18
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yeah most gen 1 bbk's are compatible with the gr86 but not the brz cuz of the knuckle.
All BBK's, performance pack Brembo's, etc. that use a caliper that bolt directly to the knuckle will work fine, aluminum or steel. BBK's that use a bracket between the caliper and knuckle may have an issue. Specifically the AP Essex kits from the 2013-2020 the braket does not clear the knuckle. Essex already has measured a 2022 and is developing an new bracket that will fit. So if you are looking to lose unsprung weight on an older gen, the aluminum knuckles are a benefit.
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Old 01-10-2022, 06:59 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Opie View Post
performance pack Brembo's ... will work fine, aluminum or steel.
Wrong.

Someone on FB already documented that the bar/bracket (that PP Brembo uses essentially like a washer/reinforcement between the bolt heads and the knuckle) doesn't fit. It's possible to attach the caliper without that bar/bracket and with shorter bolts, but the overall rigidity/durability is likely compromised.
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Old 01-10-2022, 07:08 PM   #20
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It's a cheaper part and more durable. Most likely nothing to do with any kind of performance. Aluminum provides better NVH as well as less unsprung weight. But balance and feel? That sounds like a marketing department not an engineer.
"Feel" could definitely translate to steering feel (of which most that tested the 2022 BRZ say the steering is actually lighter than the outgoing model (lighter steering is not desirable.)
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Old 01-10-2022, 10:19 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Opie View Post
All BBK's, performance pack Brembo's, etc. that use a caliper that bolt directly to the knuckle will work fine, aluminum or steel. BBK's that use a bracket between the caliper and knuckle may have an issue. Specifically the AP Essex kits from the 2013-2020 the braket does not clear the knuckle. Essex already has measured a 2022 and is developing an new bracket that will fit. So if you are looking to lose unsprung weight on an older gen, the aluminum knuckles are a benefit.
Don't most third party bbk's use brackets between the caliper and knuckle? Looking at the install manuals the PP Brembos and JDM TRD 4/2pot kits bolted directly onto the knuckle.

Wonder if this means the bulk of third party bbk's are essentially universal calipers and use appropriately sized rotors and brackets to fit to various makes/models while the ones that bolt directly onto the vehicle are actually made specifically for the particular make/model
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Old 01-10-2022, 10:25 PM   #22
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"Feel" could definitely translate to steering feel (of which most that tested the 2022 BRZ say the steering is actually lighter than the outgoing model (lighter steering is not desirable.)

A Ferrari 458 has light steering and is full.of feel. Less feel is not desirable. Not necessarily weight. It still weighs up niicely and is one of the best eps systems available. And that would come down mostly to tuning. The marketing and accessories along with the Japanese vids have me thinking that the GR86 is the much more image conscious car of the two. The BRZ is just a little more serious because the Toyota doesn't have to be. I'm sure they saw the numbers too. Way more manuals sold in the previous gen BRZ. Anyways you see feel in steel knuckles and I see a cheaper part. Agree to disagree.
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Old 01-11-2022, 12:55 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by PBR View Post
It's a cheaper part and more durable. Most likely nothing to do with any kind of performance. Aluminum provides better NVH as well as less unsprung weight. But balance and feel? That sounds like a marketing department not an engineer.
Probably.

A couple of kg of unstrung weight at the very edge of the car will add resistance to a cars rotational inertia, and iron and aluminium flex quite differently.

Whether or not its enough to feel different only time will tell - I'm sure people will be doing swaps right.
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Old 01-11-2022, 07:17 AM   #24
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Probably.

A couple of kg of unstrung weight at the very edge of the car will add resistance to a cars rotational inertia, and iron and aluminium flex quite differently.

Whether or not its enough to feel different only time will tell - I'm sure people will be doing swaps right.
Definitely. They have different properties. But I just don't see how more unsprung weight could ever be a disadvantage. An alignment, tires, suspension and wheels would change the feel much more than the knuckles, I would think so I would still want to have the aluminum ones. Durability, cheaper, easier for techs to work on and not destroy? Sure. Performance or feel advantage? Sounds like a marketing intern staying late lol. I've stated my observations enough now. Forest from the trees and all that. Cheers.

Last edited by PBR; 01-11-2022 at 07:30 AM.
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Old 01-11-2022, 09:19 AM   #25
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Ok, here's the advantages/disadvantages of each.

Steel
-is 3lb each heavier in this application. More unsprung weight (well, mass) is generally bad because it increases the vertical momentum of the wheel when it goes over bumps and such
-has a fatigue limit, meaning it can be designed to last literally for ever. No amount of force oscillation within the stress limit will cause fatigue if designed this way.
-is typically stronger than aluminum at key points that cannot be changed, such as interfaces to other components. Aluminum parts usually have different designs than their steel counterparts to make up for lower strength. However, things like holes and threads used to attach other parts have to be the same between both materials
-is cheaper

Aluminum
-is 3lb lighter
-can be designed to be as strong and stiff as a steel part, usually with less total mass (though slightly greater volume) as seen above
-has no fatigue limit, meaning the part will become less strong/stiff over time and eventually fail, regardless of design.
-is weaker than steel at key interface points.
-costs more
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Old 01-11-2022, 12:00 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Spuds View Post
Ok, here's the advantages/disadvantages of each.

Steel
-is 3lb each heavier in this application. More unsprung weight (well, mass) is generally bad because it increases the vertical momentum of the wheel when it goes over bumps and such
-has a fatigue limit, meaning it can be designed to last literally for ever. No amount of force oscillation within the stress limit will cause fatigue if designed this way.
-is typically stronger than aluminum at key points that cannot be changed, such as interfaces to other components. Aluminum parts usually have different designs than their steel counterparts to make up for lower strength. However, things like holes and threads used to attach other parts have to be the same between both materials
-is cheaper

Aluminum
-is 3lb lighter
-can be designed to be as strong and stiff as a steel part, usually with less total mass (though slightly greater volume) as seen above
-has no fatigue limit, meaning the part will become less strong/stiff over time and eventually fail, regardless of design.
-is weaker than steel at key interface points.
-costs more

Great summary!

Just to add, if you live in the rust belt, the aluminum will last longer than the steel because the steel won't live long enough for the fatigue limit to matter
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Old 01-11-2022, 12:18 PM   #27
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Great summary!

Just to add, if you live in the rust belt, the aluminum will last longer than the steel because the steel won't live long enough for the fatigue limit to matter
Lol. I'd be more worried about the subframes than the steering knuckles. Never had a steering knuckle rust through, but I did see my one rear subframe split into 3 subframes on my old Outback...
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Old 01-11-2022, 01:27 PM   #28
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Aluminum
-is 3lb lighter
-can be designed to be as strong and stiff as a steel part, usually with less total mass (though slightly greater volume) as seen above
-has no fatigue limit, meaning the part will become less strong/stiff over time and eventually fail, regardless of design.
-is weaker than steel at key interface points.
-costs more
Should point out that manufacturers will design aluminum components to survive multiple lifetimes of the most harsh usage. So even though theoretically with enough load cycles parts will begin to fatigue and crack, in most cases you'd have to drive over rough roads for 250k+ miles to get to that number of cycles. Tons o testing to validate designs and analysis as well. When I was in the two-wheeled world, a company specializing in vehicle testing rode our vehicles day and night for weeks. The guy who rode at night was known as "The Night Rider"

So typically aluminum components will actually be a bit stiffer due to being bulkier (higher sectional moments of inertia) while also being lighter-weight, while being sufficiently stout to withstand multiple lifetimes of load cycles without loss of stiffness due to fatigue/cracking.
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