Official Formula 1 thread

[torqdork]

Really enjoyable race to watch (but not hear). Now I wonder if Mercedes dominance and Hamilton's recent unsporting comments will make them the new Red Bull at least for this season?

Hobbs made a few snarky but interesting observations: Renault was the driving force behind the hybrid "power units" but lag far behind in performance (with a snort), Rosberg may have been following team orders in the final stint and Haas racing is in for next year but thinks they'll have difficulty finding competent design talent.

Maybe Renault's push into alternative fuel vehicles is their incentive, but with worldwide sales of hybrids from all makes being only 3½% of the total market, I wonder if it's really the industry's future or a PR stunt from Renault who threatened to quit F1 unless they got their way?

[rice_classic]

The announcers spoke in length this race (more so in practice) about the rule changes and how it was pushed heavily by Renault that if changes didn't happen and happen soon, they would be gone, as soon as 2014. Well, we apparently keeping Renault was important. There's some tweaks I would like to see such as:

• Increase minimum weight so the drivers aren't dehydrating themselves to make weight.
• Keep limited fuel flow but increase total fuel by 10-15kgs so the drivers can are doing much less "conserving".
• Change the noses, if there's ANYTHING that's making F1 look foolish it's those noses... Not DRS, Not ERS, not Turbos or sounds.. it's those goddamn Gonzo noses!

If anyone watched this last weekend's race in Bahrain and still think the F1 isn't exciting is like someone watching boxing and complaining there isn't enough punching.

That race was AWESOME, right down to the final laps. Overturned car, wheel to wheel with 1st and 2nd place cars (on the same team!), safety car, Massa's start, drivers sliding around on entry and exit, LOTS of brake lockup, Daniel out performing Vettel, Force India on the podium.. This race had it all.

If this is what F1 looks like when it "goes green" then paint me green and call me Kermit.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by torqdork

Maybe Renault's push into alternative fuel vehicles is their incentive, but with worldwide sales of hybrids from all makes being only 3½% of the total market, I wonder if it's really the industry's future or a PR stunt from Renault who threatened to quit F1 unless they got their way?

Looking at Renault, as a company, and their specific direction for the future that statistic might not be the most relevant. Also consider that Renault owns a 43.5% share in Nissan and Nissan has a focus on efficiency and electric. And don't get too hung up on this electric thing, a big part of this equation is the fuel restriction, reduction in engine size and turbo as well. It's all about developing "efficiency".

If I was the head of a company and one of the divisions wants to drop half a billion or more in 1 year developing 1 engine that won't ever see a street car it would be hard for me to approve that if something from that exercise didn't translate to the core-directive. Renault isn't a Ferrari or a Mercedes, it's target audience aren't the 1%ers of the world and on top of that the environmental restrictions for road-going cars around the world in the next 10-15 years are only getting more and more restrictive.


At the end of the day, while I've done my fair share of defending the direction of the sport, I'm not saying the old ways weren't exciting with big, fire-breathing engines.. Not at all. I LOVED those days. What I'm saying is that like anything, sometimes changes is a necessity of improvement and other times change is a necessity of survival. F1's current direction, IMHO, is a necessity of survival.

If more races are like Bahrain, and the critics still aren't happy, well then I think this sport simply isn't for them and they should move on because that's probably the most exciting F1 race I've seen several years. If that sort of excitement keeps up, F1 will create far more fans than it will lose in critics.

[Silver Ignition]

Nico Rosberg: I strongly dislike coming second to Lewis, that’s really not something I enjoy doing but on the other hand it was definitely the most exciting race I’ve ever done in my whole career. I hope we were able to give all of you fantastic racing in front of the TV. Today was a day for the sport. We put on a massive show as team Silver Arrows so I hope you had a lot of fun in front of the TV and I’ll be back next race to take the win.

Dude's got FIRE. Love it.

[torqdork]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Looking at Renault, as a company, and their specific direction for the future that statistic might not be the most relevant. Also consider that Renault owns a 43.5% share in Nissan and Nissan has a focus on efficiency and electric. And don't get too hung up on this electric thing, a big part of this equation is the fuel restriction, reduction in engine size and turbo as well. It's all about developing "efficiency".

If I was the head of a company and one of the divisions wants to drop half a billion or more in 1 year developing 1 engine that won't ever see a street car it would be hard for me to approve that if something from that exercise didn't translate to the core-directive. Renault isn't a Ferrari or a Mercedes, it's target audience aren't the 1%ers of the world and on top of that the environmental restrictions for road-going cars around the world in the next 10-15 years are only getting more and more restrictive.


At the end of the day, while I've done my fair share of defending the direction of the sport, I'm not saying the old ways weren't exciting with big, fire-breathing engines.. Not at all. I LOVED those days. What I'm saying is that like anything, sometimes changes is a necessity of improvement and other times change is a necessity of survival. F1's current direction, IMHO, is a necessity of survival.

If more races are like Bahrain, and the critics still aren't happy, well then I think this sport simply isn't for them and they should move on because that's probably the most exciting F1 race I've seen several years. If that sort of excitement keeps up, F1 will create far more fans than it will lose in critics.

I understand efficiency. It's just that the FIA seems a step behind the curve although they call this season's change progress. The reality is that the US and Australia are about to become the world's largest producers of oil and gas, hybrid sales are flat and electric cars can't be sold even with huge taxpayer incentives. The hottest selling vehicles in America today are light duty trucks. In our region, Portland, the dated carryover Tacoma and Tundra are both outselling the all-new Corolla. Gas costs would be trending down if refineries weren't tapped out.

But I agree that regulations will only become more restrictive worldwide and especially in the US with the recent doubling of CAFE standards that for the first time apply to light duty trucks and why Ford went with aluminum for their bread and butter new F-150.

Carlos Goshen must hold sway with the FIA with his radical demand for hybrid power units. IMO they haven't added to the entertainment anywhere near what the downforce changes produced. They could've been more incremental with changes and reserved the most expensive rules for a season after judging what helps the sport most. I'd like to see even fewer downforce restrictions like allowing DRS on demand everywhere during a race like in qualifying.

And I really wonder how much F1 helps industry sales outside of the exotic segment compared to sports car or (pardon me) NASCAR racing. Sure Renault and everyone else wants some ROI but after dropping $3 Billion+ on F1, Toyota came away with a few museum pieces, no wins and a nice test track in France. Their mistake was thinking they had the talent to produce everything in-house. No guarantees in the sport except for the promoters cut.

The Bahrain GP was thoroughly entertaining in all ways. It's ironic that a David (Force India) can knock off a Goliath (Renault, Ferrari) and podium with older school tech and limited funds. It's shaping up to become one of the better seasons and will be great once (if) the other teams find top end speed to match Mercedes.

[serialk11r]

@rice_classic
I think it should be the other way around with fuel. Same fuel, higher fuel flow allowance. You'd get a shitload of overtakes that way from people deciding whether to conserve fuel or go faster. Which IMO should be a consideration.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by torqdork

But I agree that regulations will only become more restrictive worldwide and especially in the US with the recent doubling of CAFE standards that for the first time apply to light duty trucks and why Ford went with aluminum for their bread and butter new F-150.

CAFE doesn't mean anything to Renault [edit: except for Nissan of America] because they don't sell in the USA but CAFE standards are, by all intentions, corrupt. They are essentially written to benefit companies producing large trucks and SUV's.
http://jalopnik.com/5265996/ballyhoe...ized-loopholes

If this country was actually serious about fuel efficiency, trucks and SUV's would absolutely not the #1 sellers. Clearly, we're doing it wrong.

I also want to add, that it's fun to say that electric cars are subsidized but remember the oil industry is heavily subsidized. One report brings up some of the costs of oil that we pay for, just at the pump but if we did would bring a gallon to over $5 http://www.iags.org/costofoil.html

This video brings to light the cost of all the externalities of the oil that we also don't pay at the pump (but should be).
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RhYY_4Wzls"]The Price of Gas - YouTube[/ame]

All of a sudden that Chevy Volt and Nissan Leaf are lookin' pretty good.

Originally Posted by torqdork

Carlos Goshen must hold sway with the FIA with his radical demand for hybrid power units.

I don't think there's any doubt about it. But F1 without Renault is almost as bad as F1 without Ferrari, as far as the rest of the world is concerned. I know there's a disconnect here because we're in the USA.

Originally Posted by torqdork

And I really wonder how much F1 helps industry sales outside of the exotic segment compared to sports car or (pardon me) NASCAR racing. Their [Toyota] mistake was thinking they had the talent to produce everything in-house.

I wonder this too. I think F1, for any manufacturer, if not being used as an engineering platform to improve your core product, is an extremely wasteful use of resources from an advertising perspective. I'm pretty sure Carlos Goshen agrees (and Honda, BMW, Toyota, etc etc). Merc is rumored to have spent ~500 Million just on the engine for this season. How do you justify that if it's irrelevant to the product you produce? (rhetorical)

NASCAR and Indy are a much more cost effective platform to be used simply as brand recognition/advertising. No great developmental achievement necessarly needs to come from that financial investment.

Originally Posted by serialk11r

@rice_classic
I think it should be the other way around with fuel. Same fuel, higher fuel flow allowance. You'd get a shitload of overtakes that way from people deciding whether to conserve fuel or go faster. Which IMO should be a consideration.

I like this too, I'm fine either way. But it's tough to have your cake and eat it too.

Race flat out or more overtaking. It seems very difficult to accomplish both as they've been struggling with this conundrum for decades. Restrict the flow, increase the amount = more flat out but still demands for overtaking. Increase the flow but restrict the total amount = more overtaking (hopefully) but still demands for drivers to be flatout. It's a very difficult thing to be have a regulations that are favorable to being flat out but also have lots of overtaking.

I want to see diffusers and wings eliminated (or significantly reduced) and a resurgence of ground effects (wingless downforce) because cars would be able to follow nose to tail and draft each other but diffusers and wings screw up the trailing car creating a silly need for things like DRS or Push-To-Pass in Indy. I have to accept the fact that wings and diffusers are never going away so I've just learned to love DRS because it's the next best thing and let's face it, DRS really has improved overtaking.

[serialk11r]

Diffusers are fine actually, most of the problem is the wings I think.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

[torqdork]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

CAFE doesn't mean anything to Renault because they don't sell in the USA but CAFE standards are, by all intentions, corrupt.

CAFE must be a concern for Renault given their Nissan alliance and contribution to the partnership's bottom line.

I've seen that video over on priuschat where almost nobody can agree on much of anything except possibly cats and dogs.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by torqdork

CAFE must be a concern for Renault given their Nissan alliance and contribution to the partnership's bottom line.

I've seen that video over on priuschat where almost nobody can agree on much of anything except possibly cats and dogs.

OOPS! good catch about Nissan.

The ability to calculate the cost of externalities is such a massive undertaking and a fascinating topic probably best reserved to a thread of it's own.

[cfusionpm]

Originally Posted by torqdork

The Bahrain GP was thoroughly entertaining in all ways. It's ironic that a David (Force India) can knock off a Goliath (Renault, Ferrari) and podium with older school tech and limited funds. It's shaping up to become one of the better seasons and will be great once (if) the other teams find top end speed to match Mercedes.

Probably has a lot to do with that powerhouse Mercedes engine too... 6 of the top 8 were MB, and probably two more if Mclaren didn't double retire. Red Bull snunk in front of a couple cars during the safety car, and the highest placing Ferrari engine was 9th.

[Superhatch]

I watch the Sky coverage from the UK. My favorite quote from the pre-race interviews was from Ron Dennis:

"These are regulations that are going to reduce fuel consumption across the world in the end, so we should be proud of our technology. The fact that the cars aren't a bit noisy...just doesn't matter. (As we can fix that later) ...We should be focusing on whats good for generations to come...for the young enthusiast. Yeah it's not formula one we know, but its the formula one of the future.

Most of the moans are coming from uncompetitiveness [sic]. Get on with it, develop your car, and focus on the whole of formula one. "

Loved the race, and it was great having racing for every position even if the race for first was 20s ahead of the rest of the pack. Previously almost the whole race was a procession but this race was almost continuous overtaking. Once the other teams get up to snuff with their motors (end of this season, next season?) I think were going to have a great, great series.

[cfusionpm]

It's also hard to make a more competitive engine when performance upgrades are not allowed mid season. Mercedes have a huge power advantage and there's not much anyone else can do about it.

[ayau]

First time watching F1. Not sure why I didn't start earlier. Have a question.

Obviously Mercedes has the better engine. Will teams be allowed to modify their power units to equalize the playing field, or will it be Hamilton/Rosberg winning podiums for the rest of the season?