Toyota GR Yaris

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by NemesisPrime909

this may have been one of the most depressing posts i've seen on this site. But you're not wrong. it's why Mitsubishi only sells an suv and 3 crossovers now. Around here people adore the new Mustang and the Challenger.

So the question is, how do we keep Japanese sports cars alive in the US when the demographic is the way it is?

Unfortunately, the only way is with buyers/demand, so unless people are willing to shell out the money then it isn't going to happen, and I don't see the landscape changing at all.

Japanese sports cars were all about tech back in the day. A light weight high revving four cylinder could beat a low tech V8 back in the 90's. Unfortunately for the Japanese, the American cars have finally caught up. They were also overbuilt, which made them the better tuning platform, but now that field has shifted to the American cars because they have tuning ability and displacement. Japanese cars were about driving performance and handling, and American cars were about drag racing, but now a Camaro LT1 1LE can best supercars around the Nurburgring. The Japanese heavyweights were so exotic before with their sequential twin turbo systems of the mid nineties or with their high revving motors like that of the S2000 with an amazingly high specific output, but now there is a flat-plane V8 in a GT350 revving to 8.5k rpms that sounds like a Ferrari.

Enter the 2000's and the Japanese sports cars began to get conservative and inexpensive, taking a step back, like the 350z, Eclipse, MR2 and RX8. There was a shift from front engine, rear wheel drive, GT-looking cars to rally cars. These STIs and Evos had the racing pedigree to give them street credit, while being capable of great 0-60 times and tuning potential. What is more, they were practical cars. They were four doors, so they comfortably fit all your friends, and they could actually operate as a good daily driver. They looked good with roof racks and could take a person to the ski slopes on the weekends and destroy a Camaro the next day, but alas, the tall wings and aggressive styling got old, and drifting was becoming more popular.

Drifting saw a resurgence of FR platforms, but at this point, there wasn't much available from the Japanese market. Many people used 350Zs or older, lighter Japanese cars to get the power-to-weight ratio right.

It seemed like this was also a time when cops were cracking down on street racing and modified vehicles, so people began to show their car and stance their car.

Another trend was the emergence of the luxury sports sedan. Used luxury cars were cheap and a little more reliable. A used M3 had the comfort of a luxury car, the sound and highway acceleration of a muscle car and the handling of some sports cars. These cars were tunable and made better daily drivers, while being understated than a loud looking sports car.

Between the need for power for drifting, the competition for luxury sports sedans, the introduction of E85 and the culmination of American cars finally getting some tech into their muscle cars, the horsepower wars began to take over, which was followed by the practical car battle--the hot hatch war.

So where does this leave Japanese sports cars?

Most Japanese sports cars haven't progressed enough (370z), are out of reach (NSX, GTR), are not Japanese enough (Supra), aren't hitting the mark enough (Civic Type R, STI) or are behind the competition (Miata, GT86) when it comes to most metrics of performance.

The best hand the Japanese can play to compete with the V8's is ease of tunability, which is what they are doing with the Supra and probably with the next 400Z. The other hand is to keep the weight down and offer something with engagement and finesse like the 86 or Civic Type R. Unfortunately, not enough people like the idea of driving a fast looking car that is slower than a SUV, so they have to find a way of making it an easy tuner car, or they need to out tech the competition with some type of hybrid systems. I wish a back-to-basics approach could work, but it can't in a market where people can only own one car, and if they have to pick for them or the family, it is more likely going to be a SUV.

This is seldom discussed, but the other problem is the dealer networks. Demand for sports cars is low, but so is production, and dealers take advantage of this by jacking up the price of sports cars. Mustangs will see this less than Supras, but even special and top editions of Mustangs will see markups. This hurts sports car sales that much more. Why would anyone pay the premium for a sports car when your average sedan or SUV has more power than most people need. A 2.0T Accord gets to 60 faster than a 86 by half a second.

This is turning into a long rant, but I don't think there is much wiggle room for Japanese sports cars to make a resurgence, especially in a downward turning economy. Safety, fuel economy, battery tech, driving aids, utility are all driving sales--not driver engagement and connection with driving; tuning into reality is the exact opposite of where society is going. Manual transmissions are dying. Petite sports cars are dying. Horsepower and performance are becoming cheaper and cheaper, more than most people need or want. Their end is not far from the horizon. I think the future for sports cars will be resined to boutique companies and classic restorations. Enjoy your 86 while you can.

[JD001]

Originally Posted by NemesisPrime909

this may have been one of the most depressing posts i've seen on this site. But you're not wrong. it's why Mitsubishi only sells an suv and 3 crossovers now. Around here people adore the new Mustang and the Challenger.

So the question is, how do we keep Japanese sports cars alive in the US when the demographic is the way it is?

The same thing is happening in the UK, people want SUVs and so-called "sports" SUVs.. And, people's understanding of what they are buying only goes as far as the badge on the bonnet, the ICE and other stupid gadgets.

I know someone who recently bought a Kia Sportage, I asked whether it was the AWD version, he didn't know resulting in call to the dealer.... People buy because they like the shape/size and the message it portrays..

I remember before the Twins, drivers were asking for a small, lightweight, fun, cheap sports car but when it appeared no one wanted to buy it...

The other thing that I have pondered, does your "average" petrolhead swap cars often enough to keep a niche product going? I enjoy cars but I don't swap out every year or even 3 years.. I buy when I like something irrespective of timing..

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by JD001

People buy because they like the shape/size and the message it portrays..

This.

[why?]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

The new twins prove the point that Europeans emissions aren't holding back much of anything, 2.5% is nothing to write home about. The turbo cars are balancing reliability and fuel economy with their tunes, easy to crank up the boost but you can not break physics, there's only so much power to be made by burning fuel in a 1.6L combustion chamber. Those F1 engines wouldn't last 20 laps on their max power tunes and often raced at <1000hp levels and even then most blew up. Niki Lauda finished 3 races in 1985 when Mclaren claimed the constructors championship off Alain Prost's back.

Let's back up here, how much do YOU think the aftermarket can squeeze out of this engine reliably? How much headroom do you think is left?

Who knows. But if you can get 20 hp out of the twins just changing the header, saying no one will get near 300 out of this engine is silly. I'd be stunned if you leave the engine and turbo stock but add tuning and e 85 you could not hit 300. I'd also be stunned if the engine wasn't totally overbuilt so you didn't have to open it up until some gigantic amount of boost was being pushed through it.



I'm not saying it can hold at some dumb number, but thinking the proper bolt ons and tune cannot get to 300 is silly. That isn't a massive amount extra. Toyota knows what the aftermarket can do to a car's reputation, and is courting them by making sure what they put out has some reasonable amount of head room.

[JD001]

Originally Posted by why?

Toyota knows what the aftermarket can do to a car's reputation, and is courting them by making sure what they put out has some reasonable amount of head room.

Do you know whether anyone in the aftermarket world is looking at the GR4? Any early releases to the "great and good"?

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by JD001

Do you know whether anyone in the aftermarket world is looking at the GR4? Any early releases to the "great and good"?

Are you asking if they are giving out inside information to parts suppliers and tuners like they did with the Supra or like Apple does to case manufacturers with new iPhones? I doubt such things would be leaked.

Like I have said before, a next gen could have the same power and displacement, and I would be fine with that. If they put in stronger rods, larger bearings, engine support/girdle, fixed cornering oil/fuel starvation and gave us a stronger transmission, and if the chassis was stiffer and the rear seats were dropped in favor of a better 50/50 distribution then I would be good. I would buy that car 100%. I can tune more power. I just don’t want a 350hp/250tq ceiling before the motor needs to be built or transmission swap needs to happen.

[JD001]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Are you asking if they are giving out inside information to parts suppliers and tuners like they did with the Supra or like Apple does to case manufacturers with new iPhones? I doubt such things would be leaked.

Like I have said before, a next gen could have the same power and displacement, and I would be fine with that. If they put in stronger rods, larger bearings, engine support/girdle, fixed cornering oil/fuel starvation and gave us a stronger transmission, and if the chassis was stiffer and the rear seats were dropped in favor of a better 50/50 distribution then I would be good. I would buy that car 100%. I can tune more power. I just don’t want a 350hp/250tq ceiling before the motor needs to be built or transmission swap needs to happen.

For homologation purposes certain items will need to match the rally car therefore I presume chassis stiffness, certain engine parts and other bits and pieces will tolerate tweaking.. I can see 300bhp could be attainable and that would be more than enough for a little pocket rocket..

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by JD001

For homologation purposes certain items will need to match the rally car therefore I presume chassis stiffness, certain engine parts and other bits and pieces will tolerate tweaking.. I can see 300bhp could be attainable and that would be more than enough for a little pocket rocket..

I just realized after my rant that I lost track of the thread topic, and I jumped to talking about the next gen 86 lol

Because of the rules, it seems like the car could be overbuilt, so I agree.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Rally_Car

The 1.6 L turbo-charged engine was retained in the 2017 World Rally Car regulations, but the turbo restrictor diameter was increased from 33 mm to 36 mm, increasing the engine's power output from 310 bhp (223.7 kW) to 380 bhp (283.4 kW). Minimum vehicle weight was decreased by 25 kg.

[sato]

Originally Posted by Guru Woodman

It seems that the petition to get in to North America is getting traction (+16k signatures)

It is even grabbing some attention on social media. Toyota USA is on Twitter asking about the GR Yaris.

Well, I pitched in!

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by why?

Who knows. But if you can get 20 hp out of the twins just changing the header, saying no one will get near 300 out of this engine is silly. I'd be stunned if you leave the engine and turbo stock but add tuning and e 85 you could not hit 300. I'd also be stunned if the engine wasn't totally overbuilt so you didn't have to open it up until some gigantic amount of boost was being pushed through it.



I'm not saying it can hold at some dumb number, but thinking the proper bolt ons and tune cannot get to 300 is silly. That isn't a massive amount extra. Toyota knows what the aftermarket can do to a car's reputation, and is courting them by making sure what they put out has some reasonable amount of head room.

300 bhp (at the crank), I agree, should be possible with some bolt ons and e85.
300 whp I'll bet against, that's almost what the wrc car puts out, someone will try and I bet it blows.

They can't make a profit overbuilding the engine compared to the wrc version. I guarantee it has cheaper pistons and rods and a less aggressive cam, I wouldn't be surprised if the wrc cars have intakes/exhausts sculpted by hand and checked on flow benches while the consumer products will make sacrifices for mass production.


Please show me the +20hp header without a tune, I must have missed that one.

There will be so few of these made that the aftermarket will be weak aside from stuff that can be easily brought over like coilovers due to shared tnga components.

[Guru Woodman]

Originally Posted by sato

Well, I pitched in!

Too late Sadly not for North America. They decided in all their wisdom to give us the GR Corolla Hatch instead of the Yaris.
I am still hoping that it will come with AWD, but IO am not holding my breath.

[JD001]

Originally Posted by Guru Woodman

Too late Sadly not for North America. They decided in all their wisdom to give us the GR Corolla Hatch instead of the Yaris.
I am still hoping that it will come with AWD, but IO am not holding my breath.

The "hot" Corolla will be competing with the Focus ST.. However, if Ford hadn't cancelled the next gen RS then who knows?? You may have got your AWD GR Corolla..

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

300 bhp (at the crank), I agree, should be possible with some bolt ons and e85.
300 whp I'll bet against, that's almost what the wrc car puts out, someone will try and I bet it blows.

They can't make a profit overbuilding the engine compared to the wrc version. I guarantee it has cheaper pistons and rods and a less aggressive cam, I wouldn't be surprised if the wrc cars have intakes/exhausts sculpted by hand and checked on flow benches while the consumer products will make sacrifices for mass production.


Please show me the +20hp header without a tune, I must have missed that one.

There will be so few of these made that the aftermarket will be weak aside from stuff that can be easily brought over like coilovers due to shared tnga components.

The FA20 puts out 200hp and holds about 350whp before needing internals, which is about double the power. Some have done more, but reliable power is 350whp, which is equal to about 280whp on a 1.6L, except the 1.6L is built for boost and has 268hp. If Toyota is building reliability into that power plant then it should definitely be able to add an extra 50-75whp with E85.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Rally_Car

Exotic materials (titanium, magnesium, ceramics and composite) were forbidden except when present in the base model.

https://toyotagazooracing.com/wrc/cars/2020/

https://www.wrc.com/en/championship/...ategories/wrc/

Cylinder block and head based on those in the standard road car.

Modifications allowed to crankshafts, con rods, pistons, cylinder linings, valves and camshafts.

The engine will definitely be reinforced for rally racing, but I'm sure there will be room for power because of the limitations on materials and block/heads. The move to a 3 cylinder is probably to improve flow of air into the cylinder with larger bore sizes, while reducing weight and friction loses. A 4 cylinder could probably be stronger, but I don't see 300whp being a hard number to hit.

[strat61caster]

You clearly don't know how much low volume precision manufactured parts cost.

I do like the comparison to the FA20 on boost, 280whp with full intake, exhaust, tuning and e85 out of the three banger I could buy into. Time will tell if it needs a different turbo to hit that number and I bet it needs a whole new cooling upgrade to make that power for more than a few minutes. But I'd argue that the FA20 is widely considered to not be a 'lots of Head room' engine.