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Tracking / Autocross / HPDE / Drifting What these cars were built for!


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Old 06-14-2013, 01:44 PM   #29
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Great thread Mike!

Question: Why would a BBK reduce operating costs substantially? Is it because of worn out rotors?
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Old 06-14-2013, 02:00 PM   #30
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Question: Why would a BBK reduce operating costs substantially? Is it because of worn out rotors?
This is directly applicable to the AP Racing "sprint" kit that we use on our shop car, but for the most part apply to any BBK. The Sprint kit happens to have these qualities to an extreme. We have access to the ENTIRE Stoptech, Brembo, AP Racing, and Alcon lines, and specificly chose the Sprint kit as it has the lowest long term operating cost

- The pads last longer and are thicker; the pads themselves are larger, offering more heat sink mass, and have more pad material (almost 2x the mass of the stock pad). The key here, is that pad cost is almost the same! Talk about value...
- The Rotors last longer (they're thicker, and have WAY more surface area for cooling faster)
- The kit as a whole keeps the entire braking system cooler, again, leading to the ability to use less aggressive, less expensive pads while maintaining function, reducing pad cost, and again, longer pad life
- The Rotors are two piece, and only cost marginally more than OEM rotors (~50% more) while offering substantially more life (300% and counting on our set)
- Brake fluid is lasting longer; we've yet to bleed the system after we originally installed it.

Additionally, see this thread for more info on why we chose the AP.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36766
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Old 06-14-2013, 06:20 PM   #31
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[LIST][*]What average oil temperatures do you see on track after about 20 minutes?
I'll take a stab at this, since I just logged temps at Sebring in 87-90* ambient temps last weekend. Saturday I saw oil temps read from the OEM sensor via the OBDII port consistently stay at 287-293*f during each session, and at one point it actually touched 300*f. However, the water temp would stay around 210-217, but wouldn't go any higher than that. I did find though that on Sunday the temps stayed a few degrees lower, and maxed at 294, but hovered around 285 to 287. I am not sure WHERE the OEM sensor is pulling temps from, but that could have some bearing on why the temps are so high in comparison to water temp. Regardless, 280-290 and 300* temps being read ANYWHERE is not good.

This was my first time on track with the car, had 997 miles on it, no mods other than brake pads, fluid and brake cooling kit, even running stock tires.
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Old 06-14-2013, 06:24 PM   #32
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I'll take a stab at this, since I just logged temps at Sebring in 87-90* ambient temps last weekend. Saturday I saw oil temps read from the OEM sensor via the OBDII port consistently stay at 287-293*f during each session, and at one point it actually touched 300*f. However, the water temp would stay around 210-217, but wouldn't go any higher than that. I did find though that on Sunday the temps stayed a few degrees lower, and maxed at 294, but hovered around 285 to 287. I am not sure WHERE the OEM sensor is pulling temps from, but that could have some bearing on why the temps are so high in comparison to water temp. Regardless, 280-290 and 300* temps being read ANYWHERE is not good.

This was my first time on track with the car, had 997 miles on it, no mods other than brake pads, fluid and brake cooling kit, even running stock tires.
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Old 06-14-2013, 06:33 PM   #33
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Can anyone comment on why coolant temps are under control when oil temps are out of control? I was under the impression that coolant temps will go out of control when oil temp skyrockets.

I've got a 90F trackday coming up, but no way to log oil temps. I'll probably change oil after that event and send an analysis to blackstone and see what comes back.
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Old 06-14-2013, 06:50 PM   #34
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Can anyone comment on why coolant temps are under control when oil temps are out of control? I was under the impression that coolant temps will go out of control when oil temp skyrockets.

I've got a 90F trackday coming up, but no way to log oil temps. I'll probably change oil after that event and send an analysis to blackstone and see what comes back.
Oil temp mainly comes from RPM, regardless of load, whereas engine coolant temp mainly comes from load, and isn't too dependent on RPM.
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Old 06-15-2013, 04:58 PM   #35
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After having the Scangauge II in my car for two weeks now, track temps were ridiculously high, and even driving around town is pretty high. 213-220 around town just cruising and 224-230 cruising on the highway at 75 to 80mph, not driving aggressively at all.
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Old 06-16-2013, 02:21 AM   #36
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My steering wheel gets inconsistently stiff while turning as if no more power steering until I force it pass that zone only to meet another stiff zone... How can I fix this?
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Old 06-16-2013, 05:28 AM   #37
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My steering wheel gets inconsistently stiff while turning as if no more power steering until I force it pass that zone only to meet another stiff zone... How can I fix this?
Disable power steering. Seriously.

It's a great "guide" for when you're pretty close to overworking the front tires and understeering; it helped me learn the car much faster than I would have without.
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Old 06-16-2013, 02:32 PM   #38
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Hi CSG Mike, what transmission and diff oil would you recommend for weekend trackies? TIA
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Old 06-16-2013, 03:36 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by smbstyle View Post
After having the Scangauge II in my car for two weeks now, track temps were ridiculously high, and even driving around town is pretty high. 213-220 around town just cruising and 224-230 cruising on the highway at 75 to 80mph, not driving aggressively at all.
I think I read that 230F is where the car starts to lose power due to oil temps. This it a tricky thing, however, because I believe we want the oil over 200F to burn off fuel/water/whatever that might be in the oil in small amounts. In short, I don't think the temps you are seeing are all that high. But I do think anything over 230 should be watched carefully.
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Old 06-16-2013, 09:17 PM   #40
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do you have oil cooler installed? which brand? if not, why?
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Old 06-18-2013, 01:49 PM   #41
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I have camber bolts and WL camber plates. On a stock susp/wheels/tires, what camber/toe would you recommend for street and track?

I could see an upgrade in break pads (SS lines installed), do you think a Koyo rad is money down the drain for track use, DD car? Would you prefer a different mod in about the same price range as the Koyo rad, exclude hp gains? Fluids are cheap so my objective is to keep hp the same but aid in cooling, breaking, and turning.

Thx!
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Old 06-18-2013, 02:59 PM   #42
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Hi CSG Mike, what transmission and diff oil would you recommend for weekend trackies? TIA
We use Motul Gear 300 in the transmission, and Motul Gear 300LS in the differential. The Gear300LS has a friction modifier, and slightly changes the characteristic of the torsen, and is also usable in some clutch type diffs. However, if you want to safe a few bucks (~7), you can also use Gear300 in the diff.

These fluids are multiweight, but are slightly thicker, so please keep in mind the gears will feel notchy when it's cold, and you'll hear the LSD "locking up" when it's cool outside and the car is not warmed up (under 50F, and making a U-turn when the car is completely cold). The tradeoff is the fluid's ability to handle more heat and abuse without breaking down.

That being said, any high quality fluid will work, and you can't go wrong as long as you have something good. I'd recommend a full synthetic, and use the Motul stuff personally in my S2k.

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do you have oil cooler installed? which brand? if not, why?
No we do not. The oil does get hot, but the ECU will pull timing to preserve the engine. We do, in the long run, plan on getting an oil cooler setup, and will likely have something custom made. If demand is there, CSG may offer a kit.

We run Motul 300V oil, and seeing 270F has zero effect on the oil itself in terms of breaking down or losing ability to lubricate.

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I have camber bolts and WL camber plates. On a stock susp/wheels/tires, what camber/toe would you recommend for street and track?

I could see an upgrade in break pads (SS lines installed), do you think a Koyo rad is money down the drain for track use, DD car? Would you prefer a different mod in about the same price range as the Koyo rad, exclude hp gains? Fluids are cheap so my objective is to keep hp the same but aid in cooling, breaking, and turning.

Thx!
How much experience do you have with a loose car? My "typical" advice for anyone who isn't comfortable with a floaty/drifty/"always wants to rotate" car is to have a slight amount of toe-in both front and rear. While this isn't 100% ideal for performance, you're sacrificing maybe 1% performance for a HUGE increase in stability, both highway and on track. 1/16" total toe-in front, and 1/16" to 1/8" total toe-in rear (depending on preference, try less first). That being said, I prefer the CSG BRZ to be at 0 toe front and rear.

Alignment is frequently used as a band-aid fix for handling/suspension/balance problems that are caused by other parts. Sways and tire pressures are also common bandaids.

Brakes and radiator is ALWAYS a great choice. The car runs hot from the factory, and keeping temps down will help EVERYTHING under the engine bay, not just the engine, last longer. SS lines are strictly a preference thing, but brake lines, IMO, are a wear and tear item that should be replaced regularly. You don't want to have a brake line fail on you, ever. I change brake lines on my S2k roughly every 20 track days, but on the BRZ, you can likely go longer, as the brakes don't get as hot.

CSG is working on a cooling solution that will be a direct drop-in replacement for the OEM radiator that is more efficient. As with all the products we offer, it will not be the cheapest on the market, but it certainly will be one of the best products you can buy.

We use Speigler brake lines on the CSG BRZ. I have used Stoptech and Endless lines on my S2k. The Endless and Speigler lines are similar in construction quality and type, and are superior to the Stoptechs IMO.
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