Battle Garage Ultimate Throwout Bearing

[CMAutohaus]

Originally Posted by soundman98

i don't buy all the snake oil they're selling,

Can you list out the "snake oil?" We are happy to get feedback.

As far as the grease groove, we based the design off of what Toyota has been using since the 70's - the J160 6 speed transmission from the Toyota Altezza (the FRS TL70 is based off this architecture, front snout is exactly the same in fact) uses a similar style throw out bearing carrier with the grease groove.

If you guys can list more concerns, I can partner with BG to make a video to answer all of them. Thanks for the support!

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by CMAutohaus

Can you list out the "snake oil?" We are happy to get feedback.

As far as the grease groove, we based the design off of what Toyota has been using since the 70's - the J160 6 speed transmission from the Toyota Altezza (the FRS TL70 is based off this architecture, front snout is exactly the same in fact) uses a similar style throw out bearing carrier with the grease groove.

If you guys can list more concerns, I can partner with BG to make a video to answer all of them. Thanks for the support!

a lot of this is right in the thread, but i'll try to condense some of it for you

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

After watching that video I am convinced that guy puts grease on everything lol.

Sandwich, grease. Sushi, grease. Dog, grease. Grease, grease.

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Remember what I was saying about how the binding is solved by extending the tail of the bushing behind the line of contact between the fork tines? They had a golden opportunity.

Originally Posted by soundman98

don't forget to grease your keyboard. i've seen video's fail to upload without it. really dangerous.


i'm curious about it. the construction differences make sense, though the "ALL OEM BEARINGS ARE GONNA FAIL IN -3 SECONDS WITHOUT THIS" fearmongering is a little over the top.

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

Yeah, that would help a lot. Wouldn’t even have to extend it that much either.

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Shit ton of available real estate going to waste. Hopefully someone reads this and makes a proper carrier.

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

Not a great pic, but here is the inside of the sleeve.

The quill on my spare trans is in good shape and measured a tick over 1.292"

Exedy bearing ID is 1.309", hard to measure though since it is plastic. The width of the inner bearing "race" measured .752".

The inner sleeve on the BG has an ID of 1.306". The length of the sleeve that rides on the quill measured 1.387". I have a little mixed feeling about the grease groove but I don't think it will be an issue.

Originally Posted by soundman98

i've got mixed feelings as well. once one starts using the clutch, that dust is going somewhere, most likely right into that dab of wet grease...

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

Yeah. I’m kinda wondering about the dust globing up the grease and getting it flung around. There’s enough room on the back section lubricant impregnated plain bearing would fit. I’m not looking to redesign this for them though but I will message them my opinion on it after I have some time on it.

but lets go through the video shot by segments.

0:00-0:30
ATTENTION ALL 86 OWNERS; your bearing is failure prone, going to fail, take your trans with it, possibly eat your children. they've used this bearing design before, with the same results, i nearly lost my dog to one in a wrx! it's a horrific design!


it's not entirely. re-use of the same design clearly indicates that it meets typical wear patterns present throughout standard test-case usage cycles. the fact that it's only notable failure is in performance vehicles indicates a vocal minority that are using a component outside the typical usage cycle.

i don't deny there's some shortcomings, but if we all stopped driving the car like a race car, the bearing would last fine. this is a budget car, and is designed as such. rallycrossing a toyota corolla is going to have some similar shortcomings, but those are well defined to last into 300,000 miles in standard traffic usage. this is a user error problem seeking an alternative solution, not really a toyota/subaru problem.


0:30-2:15
oem uses an open-faced bearing, so all the grit falls right into the bearing, through MY ADVANCED EXPERIENCE, i set up a closed-race bearing. a closed-race bearing is better, as it doesn't allow that grit to fall into the bearing race

yeah, that's great.

i feel it's important to point out that i've already bought the full kit, for 3 specific reasons.
1. i love the closed race bearing design
2.i like that you're using a common toyota-spec bearing to solve the problem.
3. i like the slightly increased tail shaft length-- this is where ultramaroon was going. you were close, but didn't entirely solve it, but this is the closest anyone's come to this part of the issue, and it's just as much part of the issue.


but i don't agree with the 'grease reservoir'. you solved the grit going into the bearing race, but created a reservoir for all that grit to get trapped in a puddle of grease on the carrier, creating a different set of problems on the transmission snout when that grease and grit are shoved back and forth during clutch usage. as he says later "every. single. time. the. clutch. is. used."


i also really think it's crap that a nearly $400 kit can't include $25 in spring clips that are absolutely required to make it work. what's the point of partnering with verus, ordering a toyota-spec bearing, and then giving up in the last bit, and needing me to get some extra parts from the dealer? you already are ordering the toyota-spec bearing, ordering the verus fork and pivot, and creating the bearing carrier. it's touted as a complete solution, but only includes a few of the parts needed for the complete solution.

i understand the manufacturing and design costs that went into this. it's a custom solution, and those are never cheap. it's why i paid for the kit already. i'm also one of the few here that have priced out custom hydraulic bearing replacements. but that still doesn't disregard the idea that it's only part of the final solution, when you were already ordering from the place that you could've created an entirely complete solution for only a few dollars more.



2:15-4:15.
grease reservoir improved, talks about how one should be replacing the clips EVERY time clutch service is performed.

also talks about using a very specific grease type that "isn't available in normal parts stores"

again, i just don't get why these things aren't included. if this kit was $500 for a complete solution with the bearing, fork, pivot, clips, and a small package of 'specific' grease, i would've gotten it without question-- i need all that stuff anyways, and now i'm going 3 different places to buy it all individually anyways (need the bearing/fork/pivot, need the toyota/subaru clips, and now i need some ultra-specific grease, not available at either of the other 2 retailers). by the time shipping and gas for the return trips to the dealer parts desk add up, i'm nearly there anyways.

this is also the point where i'd love to see usage testing proving that the design and grease reservoir alter the clutch pressure necessary, as well as before/after pictures of the trans snout, all done thousands of miles after the kit was installed, to verify/prove that the kit does in fact correct snout gouging as claimed. someone had to go through all the effort to design the carrier, i would expect that this carrier has been ran in a car for a at least 5,000-10,000 miles in autocross to check their work and make sure it does as it's supposed to. just show your existing work proving it all works as stated.

this is also the point where the 'snake oil' sets in for me. there's a lot of statements that the design corrects ALL the shortcomings of the oem design, but no proof, as the only information we're given is really just a new-component install video telling us to 'trust me, it works. if it works, proof should be easy, it shouldn't take words, or even youtube.

heck, put it all in a PDF on the product page. anyone that cares enough to be researching alternative designs like this would read every word of the pdf and any accompanying destruction modes documented. you're not selling a product to the masses that just need to hear that it's 'gooder', you're selling a product to mechanically-minded enthusiasts. we all know what mcmaster carr is, and we all know that no design is infallible, no matter what failure modes are accounted for.

to further the 'snake oil' part--even the product page references a full year of testing, as well as sending some units to dirtfish rally school. this was where i had originally checked the link to where the dirtfish web link was going. if there was a statement/use-case/post-mortem from dirtfish, i'd feel a lot better.

anyone can send things to dirtfish, their address is listed right there on their website. i can send them a bag of my dogs poop right now, and say "i worked with dirtfish rally school in the past on various projects". harassing a business can technically count as a 'project'...

if it's not snake oil, where's dirtfishes statement on reliablity/post-mortem on the design? did they even use it? i shouldn't need to go beyond the product page for this info if it's true and factual-- that's where the dirtfish link really ought to point to, otherwise it's just pointless name-dropping to imply that a product is better than it is. which is inherently what snake oil is.

the website also notes that there's an anti-friction coating applied. what coating? what's the life expectancy? you're talking to a group of people that will actively debate the use-cases of 200 tread-wear tires on the street, and the effect of 3 PSI in tire pressure, or 0.2 degrees of camber angle.. details matter, and a lack of details is what 'snake oil' is.




ok, beyond this point, we're getting into critiquing the video, as the above really addresses the 'snake oil' you really asked about, but i feel it's relevant to continue. the website notes that this is a solution, but it could very easily be a complete solution that it's not currently, for only a small amount more.

4:15-8:00
GREASE EVERYTHING! TWICE! but not too much, or it slings off everywhere!

some further direction is really needed here on what is 'too much' or 'too little'. all the video shows is him wiping grease on everything, in a respect that i feel is absolutely too much.



the rest of the video is mostly standard install/and personal opinion as the guy checks his work. good to see, but personal opinion doesn't really matter here--i wouldn't expect him to say anything negative, so while it lends credibility to his person, it doesn't change the product at all for me.

[soundman98]

there's a lot of negativity in my last post that i want to somewhat counteract. i can see that potentially going sideways, and that's not a direction i want it to go. i feel it was important to state all of what i did, but feel a 2nd post is necessary also.

i still bought this. i still believe in this product. i paid $345 + shipping for this. from a website i've never seen before, for a product made by a bunch of people i've never talked to, all because a product only claims to do something i want.

the great thing about the enthusiast market is products like this. but the enthusiast market is a double-edged sword.

i've seen entire brands built around the owners interaction on forums. i want to see others improve, and the interest you display asking where the downfalls are is a great step in that direction.

the enthusiast market you're catering to is always going to be a passionate group of people that, with the proper motivation, i've seen entire brands rise from nothing. i was around on mp3car went from one guy selling specialty computer parts out of their garage and moved into a corporate space, then started pivoting from selling to idiots installing pc's in cars to industrial pc solutions. and i was there when matt kosoff was selling old headlight parts out of his parents basement as The Retrofit Source, and when he moved to georgia to continue on to creating a multi-million dollar a year company employing over 2 dozen people, and custom-building entire headlight/taillight solutions.

i love to see people strive to improve, and love seeing all the solutions different people come up with for different problems. the biggest thing that some of those other success stories have done to improve themselves always started with what you're doing, simply asking for feedback.

on the other side of things, most of what those examples based their success on was really how they involved and discussed things with the community of enthusiasts their ideas catered to. like i said previously-- just showing your work goes a long ways. anyone that's willing to drop close to $400 on a part like this isn't going to be an idiot with a credit card but no wrenches. your market is people like me or the others posting in this thread. we've all got technical backgrounds, with varying understandings of metals and lubricant interactions, many of which likely exceeded knowledge of which those that designed the component.

in any forum community, we all come from very diverse backgrounds, many with some very unique requirements that oem's simply can't deliver to, or have experience in material limitations that can be invaluable for product development. because of those diverse backgrounds, many of us have loads of experience and are more than willing to freely share and help anyone we can to improve themselves or their products to better serve that same forum community. as such, many times a product better serves a forum, people like me start to freely promote such products just because it fixes something common.

i like the idea, i like it so much i went and got one despite any noted reservations about the design or brand experience, even when that $400 could've just as easily gone to any number of other projects i've got going on everywhere else. i didn't need this design. i didn't need to spend the money. the oem design mostly works for my usage. but being an enthusiast, it's hard to pass up on ideas like this that promise a better mouse trap.

i appreciate you taking the time to seek to improve yourself and your product, and i hope you keep this sort of thing going, and seek to fix other common problems in the enthusiast arena.

[RToyo86]

Picked mine up from the border today along with the exedy flywheel and clutch. Haven't planned to drop the trans yet but I suspect it'll happen before the end of summer to avoid the potential of dealing with this in the winter. . Took more photos for reference.

[Ultramaroon]

Ah! NOW I see it. There's a big groove but the tail of the carrier does support against cantilevered load. It could be taller but this is nice. Here's a decent breakdown of binding ratio. In this application as a low-speed linear sleeve guide(bearing), there's a direct correlation between height of the tail, and the need to control friction.

In other words, if it was tall enough, lube could be ignored. This offering does seem to address the fatal flaw of the original design. Is it good enough? I'm staying tuned especially because I'm beginning to get that familiar little sticky feeling when I first start using the clutch. I'm already well trained with the muscle memory to tap and feather the pedal to free it up when I feel it.

[NoHaveMSG]

@tec333 can you pm me again with an email address?

[bhmax]

After being broken down from a bad TOB, I like the idea of this. I see they say use Exedy clutches. I have an Exedy stage 1 that works great with my Harrop SC, but deceleration noise around 3k RPM makes me hate driving it. Was looking into other clutches, maybe Xclutch. Hope to see what else I can use with this bearing that feels close to stock, holds more torque, and doesn’t have weird noises.

[RToyo86]

Regarding comments earlier about lubing the front bearing cover, is there a recommendation on type of grease to use? If silicone based can I get a product plug?

Might be time I drop the trans and swap this in along with new clutch/flywheel.


Pedal feels like it's binding a bit through its travel and getting this popping-like noise when pedal goes in and out.

[RToyo86]

Did the install today; Verus fork+pivot, exedy OEM clutch/flywheel. Old TOB was pretty tired. Made noise when you spun it by hand. The front bearing cover was pretty scored probably explains crunchy pedal.

[Balf]

For those who may have installed this TOB- how has it held up? Any insight for future potential adopters? I fear I may need to replace mine soon.

[RToyo86]

I've probably put 6000-8000km since post above. Had weird initial issue with a tick noise and what felt like pedal resistance when it happened while depressing near the floor. Readjusted the clutch pedal twice, mostly to shorten it and it went away before I was planning to drop and inspect.

I may pull it apart as some point to check on grease. I realized afterwards I didn't grease the little pins that hold the TOB to the fork. Not sure how vital that is. Also see some guys use more grease on bearing cover than me. I was sure to add a bunch of grease to the channel on the BG TOB and added enough grease to cover to coat the bearing cover.

Pedal feel is still great. Clutch feels easy, almost soft but I think that is just how it is thinking back to when the car was new. Worn TOB feels like a button and engagement isn't smooth.