OTL 2Gen header 20hp+

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Ronac

The gains seem a bit high but keep in mind the stock header has the cat integrated into it. This header is catless so installing the header is the equivalent of installing a test pipe on a car with a different exhaust setup.

Pretty sure we all know there is a cat there. Opening up the header should show a change in the power curve. Usually brings the low end up. This does nothing at all.
That is a supposedly massive gain just for a cat removal.

[Dake]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I would always like to see stock, stock with tune (pump and E85), header, and then header with tune (pump and E85). Obviously, we would need to take the tuning and everything on good faith, but this looks decent.

Originally Posted by x808drifter

Add stock header minus the cats too.

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Pretty sure we all know there is a cat there. Opening up the header should show a change in the power curve. Usually brings the low end up. This does nothing at all.
That is a supposedly massive gain just for a cat removal.

Yeah, it's too new yet but hopefully we get something similar to what they did with the 1st gen.

That being said, as has been discussed ad nauseum (and demonstrated by the above tests), de-catting on modern cars makes very little difference compared to any number of other changes.

[PulsarBeeerz]

I am trying to get a bit more info from OTLP in regardless to showing ALL the post catless header runs. Of course one would pick the highest result but other runs even if they are 209, 210.5whp would add validity of test results.

[CincyJohn]

Originally Posted by Ronac

The gains seem a bit high but keep in mind the stock header has the cat integrated into it. This header is catless so installing the header is the equivalent of installing a test pipe on a car with a different exhaust setup.

The problem is that lots of people have already tested 1st Gen catless headers on the 2nd Gen and gotten minimal if any gains. It’s hard to fathom what is different enough about this design that would lead to results like this without a tune.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Dake

Yeah, it's too new yet but hopefully we get something similar to what they did with the 1st gen.

That being said, as has been discussed ad nauseum (and demonstrated by the above tests), de-catting on modern cars makes very little difference compared to any number of other changes.

And yet here we are with a catless header and no tune making 20hp more across the power band. Removing the cats are definitely going to make a difference. The difference will be greater for the cats that are closer to the engine than further away. Not all engines will have the cats be the restrictor, nor will the ECU always compensate in a favorable way, but for FI or high output (high flow) NA engines, cats will certainly affect power output.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by CincyJohn

The problem is that lots of people have already tested 1st Gen catless headers on the 2nd Gen and gotten minimal if any gains. It’s hard to fathom what is different enough about this design that would lead to results like this without a tune.

The big areas are:
--Increased runner diameter, as R^4 part of the flow equation means a small radius increase can have a huge effect on flow.
--Catless increases flow.
--4-1 typically does better on top end, and 4-2-1 typically does better on low end torque, and long runners tend to help flow better for better laminar flow.

This header might have bigger piping than stock, catless and maybe longer primaries, but I don't know any of this, and I have no idea how the piping diameter here compares to the 1st gen, but that would likely be the biggest difference.

[Dake]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

And yet here we are with a catless header and no tune making 20hp more across the power band. Removing the cats are definitely going to make a difference. The difference will be greater for the cats that are closer to the engine than further away. Not all engines will have the cats be the restrictor, nor will the ECU always compensate in a favorable way, but for FI or high output (high flow) NA engines, cats will certainly affect power output.

Which is precisely why people are questioning it. 20 HP increase with absolutely no other changes seems suspect specifically because modern cats don't usually cause that big of a hit.

But hey, there's always gotta be the exception to prove the rule, so if it holds up, good for them (and your other reasons mentioned above make sense too).

[Blighty]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Pretty sure we all know there is a cat there. Opening up the header should show a change in the power curve. Usually brings the low end up. This does nothing at all.
That is a supposedly massive gain just for a cat removal.

I don't see anything odd at all about the torque curve. Its certainly not exactly the same, particularly given it was on the same dyno within a very short space of time.

No reason at all to throw shade at the results, these results show a lot of promise.

[Lantanafrs2]

I'll wait for the 10 horse intake manifold. That will require an even lower baseline

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Blighty

I don't see anything odd at all about the torque curve. Its certainly not exactly the same, particularly given it was on the same dyno within a very short space of time.

No reason at all to throw shade at the results, these results show a lot of promise.

OK so the numbers game get's real interesting if you go back to the dynos everybody drooled over in February.
If those numbers (that were accepted by the optimists) are correct then the new header at Max 212HP actually LOST 3HP over stock!

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148862

So which is it? They can't both be right.

And you guys wonder why I question the accuracy of dyno results?

[ROFL it's Waffle]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

OK so the numbers game get's real interesting if you go back to the dynos everybody drooled over in February.
If those numbers (that were accepted by the optimists) are correct then the new header at Max 212HP actually LOST 3HP over stock!

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148862

So which is it? They can't both be right.

And you guys wonder why I question the accuracy of dyno results?

I thought most drivetrain loss was more in the realm of 15-20% (higher for awd/automatics, lower for manuals/rwd/fwd).

Maybe my math is wrong (the math: 228 hp rated at crank, "211" whp = 8% loss), but I'm pretty impressed by how "little" drivetrain loss there is in the stock Gen2. Maybe it's more of a possibility to see higher hp increases with "basic" upgrades

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by ROFL it's Waffle

I thought most drivetrain loss was more in the realm of 15-20% (higher for awd/automatics, lower for manuals/rwd/fwd).

Maybe my math is wrong (the math: 228 hp rated at crank, "211" whp = 8% loss), but I'm pretty impressed by how "little" drivetrain loss there is in the stock Gen2. Maybe it's more of a possibility to see higher hp increases with "basic" upgrades

Possible. My point is that they are claiming a 20HP "gain" from a very low baseline. If they were getting the same from the "accepted" baseline of 215 then it would be truly impressive!

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by ROFL it's Waffle

I thought most drivetrain loss was more in the realm of 15-20% (higher for awd/automatics, lower for manuals/rwd/fwd).

Maybe my math is wrong (the math: 228 hp rated at crank, "211" whp = 8% loss), but I'm pretty impressed by how "little" drivetrain loss there is in the stock Gen2. Maybe it's more of a possibility to see higher hp increases with "basic" upgrades

Modern FR car, drivetrain/tire loss is ~13-15%. The new engine is *underrated* from the factory. It really makes ~240hp crank.

And this header does not *really* add 20hp, no way no how the factory exhaust is THAT bad. Judging from the curve being nearly exactly the same as stock, I would bet real same vs. same, header might have gained a couple/few hp. Or lost that much.

[Teseo]

Lets wait JDL autodesign to debunk this