Double-Clutching - Stupid Question Alert

[Justin.b]

Originally Posted by DM7

I had a look at the service manual, both first and reverse gears have synchros.

"A lot" was an exaggeration but I do downshift into 1st a few times each week. Instead of trying to accelerate in 2nd below 10mph I prefer to downshift and use higher rpms in 1st. I typically do this in parking lots and when approaching stopped traffic that is starting to get going again.

I don't know if I was thinking of old transmissions or what when I said no synchros on 1st and reverse. Someone already called me out on that.

I just don't like first gear, and try to use it as little as possible.

-Justin

[PureShield]

Originally Posted by MuseChaser

Don't give up on it; it's a good skill to have, and it really helps you drive better when you DO use the clutch, too. The car that really refined it for me was my first Fiat Spider. That thing would go into every gear SO smoothly when rev-matched that I really only used the clutch to start out in first gear. Find a car that's been around the block a few times and a little sloppy; it'll be easier to learn on, plus you won't care if you DO inadvertently make a few awful sounds. The secret, at least at first, is getting the engine revs a bit above where they'd be in your desired gear, then GENTLY holding the shifter against that gear as the revs drop and hit that sweet spot. If you miss it, or it doesn't slip in easily, don't force it... just try again. The first time it slips in smoothly, it's almost as good as... well....... the first time it slips in smoothly. You'll get it.

Barry

You should always be using the clutch to shift. It's how it's supposed to operate. The idea to me just seems dumb.

[MuseChaser]

Originally Posted by PureShield

You should always be using the clutch to shift. It's how it's supposed to operate. The idea (inserting for clarity-"of learning to shift without using the clutch") to me just seems dumb.

Then don't learn how to do it if you think it's dumb. On the other hand, if your clutch ever fails you, you'll need a tow truck while the rest of us who took the time to learn this technique will just drive home. The other reason to learn to shift w/out it, as already alluded to earlier in this thread, is that it HELPS your clutch and shifting technique; it forces you to rev match precisely (which you should always strive to do prior to releasing the clutch anyway), which fewer and fewer people seem to do with any real care these days.

IMHO, your opinion mirrors those musicians who feel they don't have to learn their scales and arpeggios; they just want to learn the music they want to learn. BS. A consummate musician knows his instrument inside and outside and it becomes an extension of his self. Good writers command a large vocabulary, whether they use it constantly or not, to better enable them to express subtle thoughts and ideas with pinpoint accuracy and effectiveness. A good driver should likewise be as familiar with his car.

On the other hand, maybe that's a dumb idea.

Best to you,

Barry

[Tekno Virus]

If can go into gear without simultaneously pressing the clutch, you got some skill there.

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[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Tekno Virus

If can go into gear without simultaneously pressing the clutch, you got some skill there.

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Yes. But can be done and should be done are two totally different scenarios.

[MuseChaser]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Yes. But can be done and should be done are two totally different scenarios.

Just to clarify my admittedly strongly stated stance on the issue of LEARNING to shift without the clutch -

I'm not suggesting that it's the way one should drive on a regular basis. OBVIOUSLY, clutches are installed in cars for a reason and should be used. I'm saying that learning to drive without using the clutch is a useful, instructive thing to do, can bail you out of a jam if necessary, and really fine tunes your sense of engine sounds/revs paired with gear ranges. Done correctly, it's not hard on the transmission. Done poorly or forcefully, and it's a REAL bad idea. Learn how to do it on something other than your pampered baby.... or just be real gentle.

Earlier I said I drove one of my Fiat Spiders on a fairly regular basis w/out using the clutch. That particular car was worn in beautifully (maybe a little worn out, who knows).. it slipped in and out of gear so easily and smoothly when matched that the clutch really seemed like an afterthought. That's the car I REALLY learned how to drive manual in, although I learned how to drive on and passed my driver's test on a manual a decade or so before that (a VW bus... talk about the opposite of notchy!).

So... of course, use the clutch, but learn and get proficient driving without it just in case AND to make you a better driver. That's all.

I don't know how many miles I've driven in my life, but I've taken two manual cars well over the 200k mark ('93 325i from 66k - 235k personally, and '92 Celica from 12k - 220K personally), and many more past 100K in my life, and have NEVER had to replace a clutch or needed to do any manual transmission repair work. Ever.

Best..

Barry

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by MuseChaser

Just to clarify my admittedly strongly stated stance on the issue of LEARNING to shift without the clutch -

I'm not suggesting that it's the way one should drive on a regular basis. OBVIOUSLY, clutches are installed in cars for a reason and should be used. I'm saying that learning to drive without using the clutch is a useful, instructive thing to do, can bail you out of a jam if necessary, and really fine tunes your sense of engine sounds/revs paired with gear ranges. Done correctly, it's not hard on the transmission. Done poorly or forcefully, and it's a REAL bad idea. Learn how to do it on something other than your pampered baby.... or just be real gentle.

Earlier I said I drove one of my Fiat Spiders on a fairly regular basis w/out using the clutch. That particular car was worn in beautifully (maybe a little worn out, how knows).. it slipped in and out of gear so easily and smoothly when matched that the clutch really seemed like an afterthought. That's the car I REALLY learned how to drive manual in, although I learned how to drive on and passed my driver's test on a manual a decade or so before that (a VW bus... talk about the opposite of notchy!).

So... of course, use the clutch, but learn and get proficient driving without it just in case AND to make you a better driver. That's all.

Best..

Barry

Used to do it all the time in the old Kaiser Army jeeps we had back in the day.
Had to do it once on a brand new Datsun pickup that the clutch linkage fell apart on once.
Have never even tried on a highly synchroed tranny though. Could probably pull it off if had to.

[Jond63]

Originally Posted by Tekno Virus

If can go into gear without simultaneously pressing the clutch, you got some skill there.

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I watched a race where PJ Jones did the entire thing without using his clutch (except to start) because he had a broken ankle. He did well, too.

Also, double clutching is valuable on slick surfaces and shifting mid corner on track as you get the output/input shafts going the same speed and then with rev matching there is much less driveline shock and less of a chance to lock the rear wheels or cause unwanted weight transfer. And it's fun!!! After a while it becomes pretty natural. That said I haven't been on track in years and am pretty rusty.

[Tekno Virus]

Were those dog rings though?

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[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Used to do it all the time in the old Kaiser Army jeeps we had back in the day.
Had to do it once on a brand new Datsun pickup that the clutch linkage fell apart on once.
Have never even tried on a highly synchroed tranny though. Could probably pull it off if had to.

Works beautifully on this trans. Timing is actually more critical in unloading the shift collar before disengaging current gear. The collar locks pretty aggressively under load.

[MuseChaser]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Works beautifully on this trans. Timing is actually more critical in unloading the shift collar before disengaging current gear. The collar locks pretty aggressively under load.

I noticed that too, but yeah, this transmission shifts beautifully with or without here, too, given good match..

Barry

[ToySub1946]

I find this thread to be one of the most informative I've seen on this site, NOT buried in a technical section.

A great place for many of us to learn more.

LOL: I was an auto tech. I've taken apart manual transmissions, a few. I've replaced clutches. I've been driving a stick since age 9 years old. Never was any good at double clutching a ten wheeled truck with one syncro trans/one non syncro trans. Just could not get it...I faked it. Reading all posts here, maybe some day I'll get it yet.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by ToySub1946

I've been driving a stick since age 9 years old. Never was any good at double clutching a ten wheeled truck with one syncro trans/one non syncro trans. Just could not get it...I faked it. Reading all posts here, maybe some day I'll get it yet.

I think shifting clutchless and double-clutching go hand in hand. If I'm doing a rolling shift into first, properly timed, it will sink into first with zero effort regardless of disengaging the clutch.

Timing is everything. Finesse is key. NEVER force it.

[ls1ac]

ok, I can not stand it.
sorry about the length but it just kept coming,

definitions are often allowed to change with time and current usage.


using the old definition both toe/heal, rev matching, and double clutching are used to achieve the same affect, to match the speed of the gears while moving the shifter to the next gear either up or down.


toe heal (or inside out side of the foot}is used to change the engine speed to match the gear speed while the clutch is pressed and the brake is being applied and the shifter is moving between gears manly down shifting. rev matching is the same thing but without the brake being applied at the same time.


double clutching is very old school and is used with heavy transmissions that slow down quickly and in this case the engine is used to speed up the gears requiring the clutch to reengage the gears while the shifter is in neutral. this is only need with heavy gears and no syncos. the term refers to having to push the clutch in twice for a down shift. this is a slow process and is of no use with the new lightweight trans as the time needed for disengagement to get out of gear reengaging and speeding up of gears to exactly match and then disengage again to keep from grinding going back in gear was the reason for the invention of the syncro rings. they can spin the light weight gears into an exact matching speed quit quickly. as demonstrated by anyone speed shifting a new car. even if you try to double clutch a new light weight transmission the syncros will make sure you get into gear, no gain.


the best example of needing double clutching, think of driving an old loaded dump truck down the hiway in say 4th gear you see something ahead and push the clutch and take your foot off the gas in anticipating stopping but things clear up and you want to put it back in gear but the engine and gears have slowed down, it is easy to step on the gas for the engine but the gears are very slow or stopped. to get them re-spinning you would put the shifter in neutral and let the clutch out to spin the gears then put the clutch back in to move the shifter back into gear. those of you that are older will remember hearing trucks grinding gears as the driver would over rev and as they slowed down to shove it into gear as the gears slowed down and matched speed.


you can demonstrate this with your car (not recommended) by following the same procedure of letting the engine and trans idle back while at speed and trying to reengage the shifter you will find that the syncos will try to spin the gears up to speed and will complain a lot. an other example of gear stopping you might come across is after sitting still for a while with the shifter in neutral and the clutch pushed in or starting first thing in the morning (oil is cold so the gears often are not as likely to be turning), it is sometimes harder to get the shifter back into first, this is because the out put gear and the transfer gear are not perfect aligned and both are stopped. letting the clutch out in neutral will spin the gears and will let you engage first easily, not part of the demo but alternately you can try pushing the shifter to an other gear will often move the gears just enough to let first engage.


on a side note and having nothing to do with anything, I think of driving a stick shift as a game similar to a game of golf. every shift is an opportunity to match your skill of timing to up shift with no need of syncros and no jerking when you let the clutch out quickly. you can sure feel it when it is right. the same with down shifting but a little more difficult, but more satisfying. then try simultaneous braking and down shifting.