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GR86 General Topics (2nd Gen 2022+ Toyota 86) General topics for the GR86 second-gen 86


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Old 07-02-2022, 06:14 PM   #239
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I can find zero reference that changes the existing law. The manufacturer recommended price is still only a recommendation not a requirement.
There is no way that they would ever legislate that the recommended price is fixed. If they do that does it also mean that the dealer can’t reduce the price to make deals? The law that stats the sticker price can’t be increased unless all advertising reflects that remains in place.
If this was a new law the internet would be full of info. There is not one single word.

Everybody needs to understand that the dealerships are not the manufacturer and can do what they want within their contracts.
https://www.goauto.ca/msrp

This is the only legislation for car prices in Ontario. Nothing about using the recommended price.
https://www.omvic.on.ca/portal/Consu...InPricing.aspx
Just passing along what I heard first hand from sales at Toyota. His exact words were “highly illegal”. Like I said, I don’t know of any legislation which backs this, and I’m not arguing with your statements or reasoning. However, I would guess that Toyota Canada has told dealerships (which I think they can do in Canada) not to mark up prices. Toyota probably doesn’t want to look bad by scalping the market. This is just a guess.
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Old 07-02-2022, 06:17 PM   #240
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I will point out that your statement/link to legislation is wrong though. OMVIC enforces legislation, they don’t have anything else to do with it. The MVDA is what you’re looking for.
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Old 07-02-2022, 08:09 PM   #241
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Just passing along what I heard first hand from sales at Toyota. His exact words were “highly illegal”. Like I said, I don’t know of any legislation which backs this, and I’m not arguing with your statements or reasoning. However, I would guess that Toyota Canada has told dealerships (which I think they can do in Canada) not to mark up prices. Toyota probably doesn’t want to look bad by scalping the market. This is just a guess.
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I will point out that your statement/link to legislation is wrong though. OMVIC enforces legislation, they don’t have anything else to do with it. The MVDA is what you’re looking for.
Toyota telling them they can’t mark up is not the same as legislation.
Not very likely they can tell them that anyway. The manufacturers have less control on the dealers that people think.
Market adjusted prices are not new or surprising no matter how much people may hate them. Nobody complains when there is a surplus and prices get slashed.
Yes the MDVA sets legislation but the OMVIC is specific to Ontario and enforces the law here. If there was such a law it would be included in the OMVIC.
The government placing maximum charges on what business prices is a slippery slope that they just don’t do much. Yet!
What the dealer may haven been talking about was sticker price not MSRP. Not that salesmen are often reliable on such subjects anyway.
Contrary to what they said there is not one single little shred of evidence that car dealers in Ontario can not charge w hat ever they want as long as they advertise and post the same price.
When the S in MSRP becomes a R (required) then there will be all sorts of noise about it.
This whole “that is the required maximum price” ledge down has been around forever yet not one person repeating it has ever provided any proof beyond “somebody said”.
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Old 07-02-2022, 08:26 PM   #242
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The disclaimer doesn’t help as far as advertised price goes. If it is on a dealer site then that is the price by law here. They could change the price on the site however. The law prevents them advertising one price and then marking up when you show up but does not restrict them to charging whatever they want. If they want to mark them up to $100,000 they can as long as the online, print ad and showroom prices are all $100,000.
Doesn't that apply to a specific VIN though? When I went to same website the Starting at price was for a model, trim and transmission but not a VIN. I would think in theory they could charge 5,000 for floor mats as long as it was clearly disclosed everywhere.
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Old 07-02-2022, 08:44 PM   #243
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Doesn't that apply to a specific VIN though? When I went to same website the Starting at price was for a model, trim and transmission but not a VIN. I would think in theory they could charge 5,000 for floor mats as long as it was clearly disclosed everywhere.
They can charge whatever they want for the whole car as long as all prices for that car match.
This is very simple and in black and white so not sure why everybody wants to twist it around so much.
Yes it sucks when in the market for a high demand car but it is what it is and all the looking for loopholes in the world won’t change that.
The same applies for just about every other high demand hard to get product product not sure why everybody thinks there is a different set of rules for cars.
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Old 07-02-2022, 11:35 PM   #244
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Yes, OMVIC has pursued charges such as s13 under ON CPA (unconscionable representation) for basically price gouging. Also, yes, manufacturers CAN and WILL control fair market of dealers. There are plenty of examples where the president of a vehicle corp has warned dealers to stop being shitheads. There are also tons of examples of dealership websites where their FAQ says that they cannot charge more than MSRP on brand new vehicles. The only thing they can add is admin fees.

Anyways, . Let's get back to allocations.
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Old 07-03-2022, 01:54 AM   #245
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Yes, OMVIC has pursued charges such as s13 under ON CPA (unconscionable representation) for basically price gouging. Also, yes, manufacturers CAN and WILL control fair market of dealers. There are plenty of examples where the president of a vehicle corp has warned dealers to stop being shitheads. There are also tons of examples of dealership websites where their FAQ says that they cannot charge more than MSRP on brand new vehicles. The only thing they can add is admin fees.

Anyways, . Let's get back to allocations.
Please show me one example of each of these claims. Just one.
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Old 07-03-2022, 11:33 AM   #246
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Please show me one example of each of these claims. Just one.
Sure, now that I'm sitting on a computer and not my phone. But please, let's stop this thread jacking after this post. If you want to discuss, you can feel free to PM me sans ad hominem. Also, if you REALLY want a clear answer from the horse's mouth, send an inquiry to OMVIC (consumers@omvic.on.ca). I'm sure they can clear up any questions and give a pretty solid answer backed by legislation and current interpretations/case law.

Ref: Dealership publicly stating that it cannot charge more than MSRP...

https://www.donvalleynorthtoyota.com...ked-questions/
Quote:
MSRP stands for Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price.
MSRP is an acronym ...

Dealers, are free to offer the vehicle for a lesser price, but never more on a new retail vehicle.

...
Ref: President of a motor vehicle corp issuing a letter to dealerships to stop price gouging...

Ref: Legal stuff (reporting)

Doug Ford warned industry writ large to not engage in price gouging due to global supply issues. Penalties were announced for gouging "necessary goods" (https://news.ontario.ca/en/release/5...-price-gouging)... however you can clearly see that the ON government will go after any industry that is reported to be violating the CPA, as in this hotel case (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thund...ging-1.5687295). Again, you can read the CPA, it's intentionally left open for interpretation. These are examples of the government applying that interpretation.

Ref: Legal stuff (legislation)

O.Reg. 333/08 (emphasis and abbreviations my own)
Quote:
Contracts for sales of new motor vehicles

39. ... (2) A registered motor vehicle dealer shall ensure that any contract that the dealer enters into to sell a new motor vehicle to a purchaser who is not another registered motor vehicle dealer includes, in a clear, comprehensible and prominent manner, the following:

...
11. The manufacturer’s suggested retail price for the vehicle, excluding the price described in paragraph 12.

12. An itemized list of the manufacturer’s suggested retail price of all extra equipment and options that, under the contract, will be sold to the purchaser in connection with the vehicle or installed on the vehicle at the time of the sale.

13. The total manufacturer’s suggested retail price for the vehicle, being the total of the price described in paragraphs 11 and 12.

14. An itemized list of the charges that the purchaser is required to pay under the contract to conclude the transaction, including charges for freight, charges for inspection before delivery of the vehicle, fees and levies.

15. An itemized list of items or inducements, including guarantees or extended warranties, service plans or rights under sales policies if the dealer has agreed to provide the items or inducements to the purchaser and there is no extra charge to the purchaser for them beyond the total sale price of the motor vehicle under the contract, and the list shall show a fair and accurate description and the retail value, if any, of each of the items or inducements.

16. The total sale price under the contract, including the charges described in paragraph 14.

17. The down payment or deposit, if any, paid by the purchaser.

18. The balance that the purchaser will be required to pay under the contract.

19. An itemized list of all other charges that the purchaser will be required to pay in connection with the vehicle at the time of delivery but that are not required under the contract, such as taxes.

...
Summary of the above: MVDA makes it pretty darn clear EXACTLY how dealers are to itemize invoice/purchase contracts. Dealers are told to list MSRP, the defined necessary adds (freight, PDI, taxes, etc.), and must list options, admin fees, warranties, etc. as each individual line items. They CANNOT add their own line items for anything else, and they CANNOT change MSRP. So, although the law does not explicitly state that they cannot charge above MSRP, you can clearly see here that it's basically impossible to do so. They'd have to violate the CPA and untruthfully add addons and admin fees that would be clearly unethical in any court. The fines for doing so are also steep, I believe it's anywhere up to $500k depending on the case (no, I'm not looking that up, I'm just guessing from memory).

OMVIC cases: https://www.omvic.on.ca/portal/Consu...nvictions.aspx

(you can search individual cases and do research for yourself, I think I've explained how this works enough for today).
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Old 07-03-2022, 11:59 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by Backfire View Post
Sure, now that I'm sitting on a computer and not my phone. But please, let's stop this thread jacking after this post. If you want to discuss, you can feel free to PM me sans ad hominem. Also, if you REALLY want a clear answer from the horse's mouth, send an inquiry to OMVIC (consumers@omvic.on.ca). I'm sure they can clear up any questions and give a pretty solid answer backed by legislation and current interpretations/case law.

Ref: Dealership publicly stating that it cannot charge more than MSRP...

https://www.donvalleynorthtoyota.com...ked-questions/


Ref: President of a motor vehicle corp issuing a letter to dealerships to stop price gouging...



Ref: Legal stuff (reporting)

Doug Ford warned industry writ large to not engage in price gouging due to global supply issues. Penalties were announced for gouging "necessary goods" (https://news.ontario.ca/en/release/5...-price-gouging)... however you can clearly see that the ON government will go after any industry that is reported to be violating the CPA, as in this hotel case (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thund...ging-1.5687295). Again, you can read the CPA, it's intentionally left open for interpretation. These are examples of the government applying that interpretation.

Ref: Legal stuff (legislation)

O.Reg. 333/08 (emphasis and abbreviations my own)


Summary of the above: MVDA makes it pretty darn clear EXACTLY how dealers are to itemize invoice/purchase contracts. Dealers are told to list MSRP, the defined necessary adds (freight, PDI, taxes, etc.), and must list options, admin fees, warranties, etc. as each individual line items. They CANNOT add their own line items for anything else, and they CANNOT change MSRP. So, although the law does not explicitly state that they cannot charge above MSRP, you can clearly see here that it's basically impossible to do so. They'd have to violate the CPA and untruthfully add addons and admin fees that would be clearly unethical in any court. The fines for doing so are also steep, I believe it's anywhere up to $500k depending on the case (no, I'm not looking that up, I'm just guessing from memory).

OMVIC cases: https://www.omvic.on.ca/portal/Consu...nvictions.aspx

(you can search individual cases and do research for yourself, I think I've explained how this works enough for today).
All of the manufacturers statements refer to it being unethical (which it is) not illegal. Their only recourse it to withhold allotment not a direct penalty to the dealers.
The law says they must show MSRP on the contract it does not say that is the maximum allowed.
Cars are not essential and not included in the Ford law.
The FAQ contradicts itself in stating that one line says it is the suggested maximum and the next says they can’t charge over it. So which is it.
The OMVIC documents are mostly for not being registered with a handful for not revealing all the charges in the advertising. None are for charging over MSRP.
Not one of these says it is illegal. Unethical yes. Bad for image certainly. Shouldn’t be done most definitely. Illegal? No.
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Old 07-03-2022, 12:47 PM   #248
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All of the manufacturers statements refer to it being unethical (which it is) not illegal. Their only recourse it to withhold allotment not a direct penalty to the dealers.
The law says they must show MSRP on the contract it does not say that is the maximum allowed.
Cars are not essential and not included in the Ford law.
The FAQ contradicts itself in stating that one line says it is the suggested maximum and the next says they can’t charge over it. So which is it.
The OMVIC documents are mostly for not being registered with a handful for not revealing all the charges in the advertising. None are for charging over MSRP.
Not one of these says it is illegal. Unethical yes. Bad for image certainly. Shouldn’t be done most definitely. Illegal? No.
This is a common misconception. Ethical does not equate to legal or vice versa. That which is not specifically illegal is legal... hence burden of proof.
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Old 07-04-2022, 05:40 PM   #249
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This is a common misconception. Ethical does not equate to legal or vice versa. That which is not specifically illegal is legal... hence burden of proof.
Ethical does not equate to legal and vice-versa, I will give you that.

HOWEVER, you may well wish to revise your thoughts on "that which is not specifically illegal is legal". If that were true, we wouldn't have judges to make those determinations, or case law to reference back to similar scenarios and outcomes. The law is not black on white.
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Old 07-04-2022, 05:57 PM   #250
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Not one of these says it is illegal. Unethical yes. Bad for image certainly. Shouldn’t be done most definitely. Illegal? No.
Okay I realized what the problem here is.

1. I was posting from my phone and wasn't paying much attention.

2. We're all hooked up on the fact that the sales rep used the word "illegal".

Let's drop the strict syntax enforcement here and rephrase: dealers are refusing to sell at MSRP because they either can not or will not, probably due to some level of risk evaluation vs public and vs manufacturers.
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Old 07-04-2022, 06:47 PM   #251
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Ethical does not equate to legal and vice-versa, I will give you that.

HOWEVER, you may well wish to revise your thoughts on "that which is not specifically illegal is legal". If that were true, we wouldn't have judges to make those determinations, or case law to reference back to similar scenarios and outcomes. The law is not black on white.
I stand by that which is not specifically illegal is legal. Laws are written to specify what you cannot do... not what you can do.

Maybe I overstepped with this being a thread a-boot Canada, but in the US courts uphold the law, not make them. The action that brings someone to court is already deemed illegal... the court process determines if someone is guilty.
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Old 07-05-2022, 10:51 AM   #252
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