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Tracking / Autocross / HPDE / Drifting What these cars were built for!


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Old 05-26-2022, 02:03 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Sapphireho View Post
That's why my 911 holds 13 quarts of oil in the oil tank.
Exactly!
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Old 05-26-2022, 02:42 PM   #16
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I can't speak to a ton of the reasons people have experienced failure. The link that was provided was informative but, in my opinion, not really related since he was doing forced induction and that definitely changes the rules/results of this conversation.

That being said, it sounds like the biggest issue people run into is overheating oil. In my case I added a 19 row cooler and thermostat for it so it feels like that's the easiest way to resolve the core issue.

Ultimately, it seems like heat is the enemy. Things that allow you to manage heat are going to increase engine life. There are plenty of anecdotal instances of people running these engines well beyond 100,000 miles so the perceived instances of failure might be getting exaggerated because of a belief that these engines are different than just about everything else out there.
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Old 05-26-2022, 02:44 PM   #17
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The most common denominator is oil temp, rather than oil pressure.

Keep those temps in check.
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Old 05-26-2022, 02:54 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by CSG Mike View Post
The most common denominator is oil temp, rather than oil pressure.

Keep those temps in check.
Cue in @ZDan in 3, 2, 1...
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Old 05-26-2022, 03:03 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by conehead View Post
Thanks for the input. It does always seem to be spun rod bearings. I have read some of the treads with extensive oil passage reworks, but that is way above what I would consider budget friendly.


I guess I should ask it this way, if using a stock engine, bolting on ?????? parts is enough to stop it from spinning bearings. Most cars have have some weak links that need regular replacement, but the whole engine can't be one of them.


Baffles and oil pick up tube? Have people had success with that?
Maintenance is why engines brake most of the time actually. All of the blown ones I've seen is from people going to the track on old oil, like 4-5 months old oil with several track days in between. All of the people I know that track the car but do way more regular oil changes (between 1 and 3 track days max on the same oil) have had no problem. None of them uses any extra baffles or modified pickup and not all of them have oil coolers (this is not a huge pool, but from around 12-14 different cars, 3 have blown motors, 2 of them several times, this information is just from my observation with that group).

For what its worth, my engine had around 60k miles when I sold it for the swap, of those, around 20k were track only. My engine now has over 120k miles on another car that had a blown engine (and had never seen the track before) and its still purring. My engine was affected by the recall but I chose not to do it.

So all in all, I stand by proper maintenance for your usage of the car will go a long way. These engines arent bullet proof but they arent made of glass like people seem to think.
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Old 05-26-2022, 03:08 PM   #20
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I stand by UOA’s for oil change intervals. Others may have different opinions but that is just mine.
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Old 05-26-2022, 03:14 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast View Post
Cue in @ZDan in 3, 2, 1...
You rang?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG Mike View Post
The most common denominator is oil temp, rather than oil pressure.

Keep those temps in check.
I've searched on this subject a buncha times and PLENTY of engines have blown with oil coolers. One thread the guy was running 225F oil temps at the track with a cooler and spun a bearing, was still convinced that the oil was "too hot" wondering how to get it cooler still!

The guy from Peru went through *multiple* engines *with* an oil cooler until he replaced the stock pickup tube with a modded (larger-diameter) Killer-B tube. He was running significantly higher than the factory rev-limit though which was part of his problem, pressure drop at higher rpm was affecting him a lot more than most.

As far as I've seen, the most common denominator *seems* to be earlier cars, mostly 2013s. I'm guessing that they might have improved the factory oiling at some point along the way?

Mine could blow next weekend at Palmer after ~38 track days and 67k street miles, but if it does I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that it was due to indicated oil temps approaching 275F.

Last edited by ZDan; 05-26-2022 at 03:28 PM.
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Old 05-26-2022, 03:40 PM   #22
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Over here i haven't seen any have issues on track, most of the engines that starts knocking seems to be road cars. The lubrication and bearing system is just badly designed, subaru have lots of weird design flaws over the years sadly. Like when the subaru diesels came here a couple of years back and they roasted their cranks on heaps of cars.

When porsche went wet sump with their boxer for 996/997 gen they started having issues with sticky tyres, mods are strongly recommended when tracking them. I remember warranty went to scrap if you ever tried it, since it was stated in the manual.
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Old 05-26-2022, 04:40 PM   #23
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You can't just ignore and/or abuse them like a Honda, Toyota, or Miata motor if you want them to last.
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Old 05-26-2022, 09:44 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZDan View Post
Mine could blow next weekend at Palmer after ~38 track days and 67k street miles, but if it does I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that it was due to indicated oil temps approaching 275F.
I just realized I never asked: what oil do you typically run?
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Old 05-26-2022, 09:56 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG View Post
Interesting. One of our local tracks has a long left we call the carousel, my oil pressure fluctuates a bit but stays just under 40 psi for the most part with no oil pan baffle. It’s a steady 1.2g in my car. It’s a corner I get fuel starve in, especially with e85.
Ya my car has aero and DOT-Rs and does ~1.5-1.6G in hard turns.
Radium surge/swirl tank resolved the issues with fuel starve, but it also caused me to burn up a fuel pump (yesterday) when I ran the tank dry just idling in the garage while fiddling with soft rev limit tunes.

.....And yes, I'm also boosted (with an oil cooler)... temps hit about 240F last weekend in 95F heat.
Redline 30wt race oil. The oil doesn't break down at those temps, but film strength is definitely reduced so it's more susceptible to spinning bearings and whatnot because it's thin from the temps.
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Old 05-26-2022, 10:20 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by timurrrr View Post
I just realized I never asked: what oil do you typically run?
Ran Total 5w30 synth the local shop stocks for a few years, last year ran 5w30 Redline. Car is at a more track-oriented shop now, will either run Redline, or the 5w30 synth they have on hand, or perhaps 0w40 Mobil1...
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Old 05-27-2022, 01:54 AM   #27
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I will say these cars are incredibly popular for track use given their performance, price and relative reliability. I know even at track days with only 20 cars, I'll find at least 3 of these cars which is incredibly high relative rate to all other cars. I don't think it would be a stretch to suggest these are the single most tracked cars in America right now. Just mentioning this because relative numbers are important to keep in mind, if you see 5 blown FA20s for one blown Miata, just keep in mind this is probably proportional to the number of tracked cars out there.

I'll note that the vast majority of people who stick to NA power and street tires (200tw limit) have been driving their cars for years now without a more serious failure than a burnt coilpack. Of the 5 people I personally know who track 2016 or older twins, not one of us has had a blown motor but we've all limited our mods to headers and tune and 200tw tires.

This is what I would have expected for years, but I do many different levels of racing in many regions and miatas always outnumber 86s. Its probably 3to1 miatas. At endurance races it is usually zero 86s with miatas taking the trophy. The 86 chassis is so much better, that I think its the engine.


200tw tires = lower G limits, and that makes a lot of sense.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapphireho View Post
That's why my 911 holds 13 quarts of oil in the oil tank.

LOL thats because your oil is your coolant! But, it did get me thinking about the Porsche solution, and that solution was dry sump with head scavenge.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Icecreamtruk View Post
Maintenance is why engines brake most of the time actually. All of the blown ones I've seen is from people going to the track on old oil, like 4-5 months old oil with several track days in between. All of the people I know that track the car but do way more regular oil changes (between 1 and 3 track days max on the same oil) have had no problem.

Maintenance is important of course but the difference between 3 and 4 track days is not a blown engine. Synthetic oil is so good that it is very abuse proof. a dozen track days and 270 degree oil will not destroy it. Now if you are using 0w20 that could be a problem.


I'm going to guess that cautious maintainers are also cautious drivers and they aren't hitting the temps and Gs to cause starvation.


Quote:
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If I were to purpose-build a boxer, I would start with dry sump and go from there. Won't happen, though. I don't want it badly enough.

TLDR sounds like the answer. Does anyone make a plug and play dry sump kit for this car??
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Old 05-27-2022, 03:04 AM   #28
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Oil 5w30 is better compared to the 0w20 for hotter climates and/or track use. It was mentioned in the car's manual too.
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