BRZ/FRS Vs DC2 Integra Type R

[WolfpackS2k]

And lower weight. And "better" gearing.

Dave, isn't the weight difference only around 100lbs? I figured the FRS's torque advantage would "offset" that. And how does the Type R have better gearing? Seems like both cars shift out of first around 38, 2nd around 58 and 3rd around 85 mph.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

Eh, I had RE010's on my ITR. Those tires were good in 1997 no doubt, but.. compared to a star spec? No IMO. I've driven both on my ITR back to back. The RE010's don't hold a candle to the modern performance tires IMO.

Oh, and I turn faster times on Sebring with the Integras. :shrug: None of my cars are completely stock though.. so.. :shrug:

Of course, you're probably the right person to ask on this forum since you have both cars currently. What difference in laptimes are you seeing, and what general mods do you have on the cars?

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Dave, isn't the weight difference only around 100lbs? I figured the FRS's torque advantage would "offset" that. And how does the Type R have better gearing? Seems like both cars shift out of first around 38, 2nd around 58 and 3rd around 85 mph.

Oh yeah. stock gearing.. who uses that? Probably good point with stock gearing though, I didn't check the numbers, I just remember thinking the ITR was shorter.

Most ITRs are in the 2500s, actually I've never seen one in the 2600+ range. The marketing info showed them as heavier.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Of course, you're probably the right person to ask on this forum since you have both cars currently. What difference in laptimes are you seeing, and what general mods do you have on the cars?

At Sebring, I'm running low 40s (41-43s). I used to run 30s in my GS-R with the mods it had. The ITR should be faster than my GS-R was, but I've never datalogged it. Upper 30s most likely. I should run it again for old times sake before I sell it on. Maybe I'll do that next weekend. GS-R had GCs on bilsteins, agressively sprung/valved, intake, header, some ECU tuning. Current ITR is much more stock, just intake, header, bilsteins. BRZ has essex brakes, front camber (top hats and bolts), axleback and intake. Now it has Eibach R2s with 500/600lb springs, so it should be faster now... Both integras also had larger rear bars. GS-R was caged and gutted as well.

I have some datalogs of our race Integra vs the BRZ. The race Integra is SLLOOOOOOOOOOOOW though. Stock cut springs on stock dampers are not exactly the gold standard suspension. Damn cheap race car rules. Even still, the BRZ is way slower than the race car on the straights. probably 5-10mph slower and the race car has to brake much much earlier. On the flip side, the corner speed of the BRZ still equates to ~4 seconds faster per lap...

[Dave-ROR]

BTW we have one of these threads already..

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...hlight=Integra

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

At Sebring, I'm running low 40s (41-43s). I used to run 30s in my GS-R with the mods it had. The ITR should be faster than my GS-R was, but I've never datalogged it. Upper 30s most likely. I should run it again for old times sake before I sell it on. Maybe I'll do that next weekend. GS-R had GCs on bilsteins, agressively sprung/valved, intake, header, some ECU tuning. Current ITR is much more stock, just intake, header, bilsteins. BRZ has essex brakes, front camber (top hats and bolts), axleback and intake. Now it has Eibach R2s with 500/600lb springs, so it should be faster now... Both integras also had larger rear bars. GS-R was caged and gutted as well.

I have some datalogs of our race Integra vs the BRZ. The race Integra is SLLOOOOOOOOOOOOW though. Stock cut springs on stock dampers are not exactly the gold standard suspension. Damn cheap race car rules. Even still, the BRZ is way slower than the race car on the straights. probably 5-10mph slower and the race car has to brake much much earlier. On the flip side, the corner speed of the BRZ still equates to ~4 seconds faster per lap...

Sounds like the ITR + I/H + shocks was in a similar state of mods to the BRZ + I/AB + front camber + brakes. And the ITR was ahead by a good bit at Sebring, hmm, good to know. Another useful data point

[ayau]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

At Sebring, I'm running low 40s (41-43s). I used to run 30s in my GS-R with the mods it had. The ITR should be faster than my GS-R was, but I've never datalogged it. Upper 30s most likely. I should run it again for old times sake before I sell it on. Maybe I'll do that next weekend. GS-R had GCs on bilsteins, agressively sprung/valved, intake, header, some ECU tuning. Current ITR is much more stock, just intake, header, bilsteins. BRZ has essex brakes, front camber (top hats and bolts), axleback and intake. Now it has Eibach R2s with 500/600lb springs, so it should be faster now... Both integras also had larger rear bars. GS-R was caged and gutted as well.

I have some datalogs of our race Integra vs the BRZ. The race Integra is SLLOOOOOOOOOOOOW though. Stock cut springs on stock dampers are not exactly the gold standard suspension. Damn cheap race car rules. Even still, the BRZ is way slower than the race car on the straights. probably 5-10mph slower and the race car has to brake much much earlier. On the flip side, the corner speed of the BRZ still equates to ~4 seconds faster per lap...

I thought you were on 500/650 on the BRZ.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by ayau

I thought you were on 500/650 on the BRZ.

lol no that was a plan at one time.

[Sonolin]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

At Sebring, I'm running low 40s (41-43s). I used to run 30s in my GS-R with the mods it had. The ITR should be faster than my GS-R was, but I've never datalogged it. Upper 30s most likely. I should run it again for old times sake before I sell it on. Maybe I'll do that next weekend. GS-R had GCs on bilsteins, agressively sprung/valved, intake, header, some ECU tuning. Current ITR is much more stock, just intake, header, bilsteins. BRZ has essex brakes, front camber (top hats and bolts), axleback and intake. Now it has Eibach R2s with 500/600lb springs, so it should be faster now... Both integras also had larger rear bars. GS-R was caged and gutted as well.

I have some datalogs of our race Integra vs the BRZ. The race Integra is SLLOOOOOOOOOOOOW though. Stock cut springs on stock dampers are not exactly the gold standard suspension. Damn cheap race car rules. Even still, the BRZ is way slower than the race car on the straights. probably 5-10mph slower and the race car has to brake much much earlier. On the flip side, the corner speed of the BRZ still equates to ~4 seconds faster per lap...

Good to know

[redcelica]

Having owned a 98 ITR and driven an FRS...I'll give the edge to the FRS...RWD rotation in the corners will win every time. The FRS simply handles BETTER than a DC2R. Not saying it wouldn't be close, but the edge to the FRS

[regal]

I remember wanting to buy a new integra but passed because it wasn't RWD. I looked up the cost in todays dollars and they would be well over $30k.

$ to $ the FR-s compares most to an EG Civic Si. A real classic car that we all wished would have been RWD. I wonder if the FR-S may just become as popular as the EG did. It would be something to have 250k+ FR-S's on the US roads in 5 years. Explosions in popularity like that happen, especially with the base FR-S under $25k, that is cheaper than a new Civic Si in '94 considering inflation and interest rates weren't 3% back then either..

[WolfpackS2k]

I looked up the cost in todays dollars and they would be well over $30k.

Seriously, why do people continually say this? You CANNOT compare car costs that way. It doesn't work, and it is not a logical argument. Do you also talk about how your Pentium 4 computer from 1994 would cost $10,000 in today's money?

[cosworth]

ITR is a great car to drive fast. I loved mine. It was closest thing to a rwd sporty car from Honda before S2000 was introduced. That B series engine was a screamer.

As much as I love one, I prefer a rwd car.

I think for most people will have a faster time in a stock ITR than a stock BRZ. Once you start to mod, it's anyone's guess.

p.s. what up dave?

[paros28]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Seriously, why do people continually say this? You CANNOT compare car costs that way. It doesn't work, and it is not a logical argument. Do you also talk about how your Pentium 4 computer from 1994 would cost $10,000 in today's money?

If you bought a Pentium 4 in 1994 for say $1200. It is as if you paid $1,750 for it with today's money assuming 2% inflation or interest p.a. Of course, this does not mean it is worth $1,750 today because you would have used it and it would have become technologically obsolete. But if you didn't buy the P4 in 1994 and put the money in the bank instead and assuming compounding interest of 2%, you would today have $1,750 to buy a top notch computer which is not comparable to the P4 in absolute terms but comparable in relative terms, as the P4 was the top notch computer in 1994.

Now lets get back to cars. Sports car A costs $40,000 today. Sports car B is similar in features and performance but was discontinued 10 years ago. The price of car B (when new) 10 years ago was $38,000. Which car is more expensive? Assuming 2% interest p.a., car B costs $46,300 in today's money. If instead of buying car B 10 years ago you saved the $38,000 at 2% p.a., today you would have enough money to buy car A at $40,000 + $6,300 to spend on mods.

Of course, you have to make some assumptions about interest rates but that is the nature of financial modeling.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_value_of_money"]Time value of money - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]