Got a track related question? I'll try to answer.

[7thgear]

I’ll have to disagree with you here

One should be able to drive correctly at any speed. We’ve had this problem a few years back when pulling together instructors for our schools, and a few of whom ended up being poor instructors because they had trouble driving at half pace and nailing their reference points and using too much or too little steering.

While knowing tricks like aiming for inside the apex and letting the car understeer are important, they are for the advanced group.

Steering input and turn in/brake reference points shouldn’t change just because you have less grip.. only the speed

And one of the most important aspects of learning to drive on the track is driving within the tire’s limits.So starting out with a low grip tire will have you learn that at a lower speed.

If you need grip to drive “correctly,”then you’ve never learned to drive correctly in the first place (with all due respect).

[ddeflyer]

Originally Posted by nyfries

Just did my second autox day. My progression is not as good as the first day. On my first day my worst ran and best ran was 13 sec apart lol. This time they are only a bit more than 1 sec apart. I kind of feel like the stock tire doesn't have enough grip but I also realize that it's probably better to learn on the stock crappy tire. I can't help but noticing that other novice frs driver was much faster than me by 3-5 second other only mods being better tire. At what point would one be ready to step up to better tires? If I were to get better tires would I ran better time even though I'm making mistakes?

I would stick with the current tires if I were you. Yes, stickier tires would improve your time but it will make it all that much harder to get good (because you can look ok doing things that are sucking speed). Until you are in the same time range as most people at the event, you probably shouldn't bother with changing anything with the car outside of normal maintenance. You could spend many thousands of dollars on your car and still not get close to the other people at the event until you get your own skills up to par (Assuming you are talking about a sub one minute course, five seconds is a huge difference).

Also, being consistent in your time is a great thing; you can start to see how changing one piece changes your time overall.

[Slick]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

I’ll have to disagree with you here

One should be able to drive correctly at any speed. We’ve had this problem a few years back when pulling together instructors for our schools, and a few of whom ended up being poor instructors because they had trouble driving at half pace and nailing their reference points and using too much or too little steering.

While knowing tricks like aiming for inside the apex and letting the car understeer are important, they are for the advanced group.

Steering input and turn in/brake reference points shouldn’t change just because you have less grip.. only the speed

And one of the most important aspects of learning to drive on the track is driving within the tire’s limits.So starting out with a low grip tire will have you learn that at a lower speed.

If you need grip to drive “correctly,”then you’ve never learned to drive correctly in the first place (with all due respect).

Agreed, many students I have had in STi's have the same issue. They have not learned to drive in low grip and tend to be too aggressive and not smooth with inputs because the car masks (and corrects) those little errors.

Learn to drive on street tires. You don't need to throw on Uniroyals to learn, but a decent street tire. Once you have gained experience, you can step up to stickier rubber.

[Tainen]

Originally Posted by Slick

Agreed, many students I have had in STi's have the same issue. They have not learned to drive in low grip and tend to be too aggressive and not smooth with inputs because the car masks (and corrects) those little errors.

Learn to drive on street tires. You don't need to throw on Uniroyals to learn, but a decent street tire. Once you have gained experience, you can step up to stickier rubber.

great to hear, thank you- so what do you think of going with something like a DZ102 for more of an intermediate step up from the stockers while still trying to maintain a learning curve?

[nyfries]

Originally Posted by ddeflyer

I would stick with the current tires if I were you. Yes, stickier tires would improve your time but it will make it all that much harder to get good (because you can look ok doing things that are sucking speed). Until you are in the same time range as most people at the event, you probably shouldn't bother with changing anything with the car outside of normal maintenance. You could spend many thousands of dollars on your car and still not get close to the other people at the event until you get your own skills up to par (Assuming you are talking about a sub one minute course, five seconds is a huge difference).

Also, being consistent in your time is a great thing; you can start to see how changing one piece changes your time overall.

Thanks I guess I shouldn't even think about wider and sticker till next season? I'm gonna try to go to as many event as possible and sign up for at least one course. How much would you say having sticker tire would improve my time difference with other frs driver? 2 sec just for having stickier tire given that my skill level is the same? Just want to know as comparison with other ppl next time.

I promise my baby to give her one big mod a year lol. I guess non suspension mods wouldn't affect my learning pace? Say like some lightweight catback?

[ddeflyer]

Originally Posted by nyfries

Thanks I guess I shouldn't even think about wider and sticker till next season? I'm gonna try to go to as many event as possible and sign up for at least one course. How much would you say having sticker tire would improve my time difference with other frs driver? 2 sec just for having stickier tire given that my skill level is the same? Just want to know as comparison with other ppl next time.

I promise my baby to give her one big mod a year lol. I guess non suspension mods wouldn't affect my learning pace? Say like some lightweight catback?

The way I'm approaching things (I'm intermediate at the track and kind of middle of the field in autocross) is to try some different tires each time I wear out a set. If you do alot of track or autocross days you will find yourself chewing through tires quite quickly (how fast depends a lot upon how you drive though).

In terms of the time difference tires will make, that really depends upon what kinds of mistakes you are making. Stickier tires are able to cover some mistakes more than others. If you are plowing into understeer going through corners then tires can give you a good boost (but without addressing the underlying issue). If you are over braking and getting out of the power band then tires won't do anything to help that. Of course there are lots of other kinds of mistakes but I think you get my point; without riding along with you we don't even know what kinds of mistakes you are making, let alone how much time you can get from the different rubber covering some of those mistakes.

[RFB]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

I’ll have to disagree with you here

One should be able to drive correctly at any speed. We’ve had this problem a few years back when pulling together instructors for our schools, and a few of whom ended up being poor instructors because they had trouble driving at half pace and nailing their reference points and using too much or too little steering.

While knowing tricks like aiming for inside the apex and letting the car understeer are important, they are for the advanced group.

Steering input and turn in/brake reference points shouldn’t change just because you have less grip.. only the speed

And one of the most important aspects of learning to drive on the track is driving within the tire’s limits.So starting out with a low grip tire will have you learn that at a lower speed.

If you need grip to drive “correctly,”then you’ve never learned to drive correctly in the first place (with all due respect).

Reread my post.

It clearly states that FOR ME , (not someone who doesn't know how to drive.)

Slippery tires got in the way of ME not effectively getting accurate smooth lines to the apexes due to the car pointing in the wrong directions during controlled slides.

The stock, slippery tires are a good way to learn drifting.

Many instructors I have seen have had no teaching training and fail to observe and learn whether the student is an auditory, visual, or kinesthetic learner and apply the wrong teaching methods to the needs of the student, (saw that again at Mosport last week with a seasoned fast tracker and an Apex instructor).

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CERBERUS

[Deep Six]

Originally Posted by gramicci101

Keep your OEM wheels and tires when you swap. That way you have DD wheels/tires and track wheels/tires! There's no reason you can't roll in style during the week and switch out to the OEM setup for track days.

This is excellent advice!

Learning on the Primacy's has several advantages. Keeps the speed down where you can focus on learning the line and hitting your marks consistently. Provides enough breakaway so you can get comfortable with corrective steering input and eventually turn off the aids. Next up will be utilizing brakes and throttle as additional steering aids as well. The Primacy tires are seriously hard and may still look pretty good although your skills may be ready for the next level so don't base that decision just on the condition of the tires.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by RFB

The stock, slippery tires are a good way to learn drifting.

car control is car control


I sense a misunderstanding in the core mechanics and a belief that certain tires suit a certain driving style






the oem tires are good for drifting because of the large slip angles... certainly a better choice than a V710 or something, but that doesn't mean you have to drive at those slip angles.


you can just as easily drive within the limits of the tires and not drift, with the only consequence being a slower laptime.


I did MIR, DDT and a handful of autocrosses on stock tires, my lines and attack strategies were no different than when I was running RA1s on my older cars, you figure out where the limit is and you stick to it.

[nyfries]

Wouldn't sticking within the limit have a faster lap time than drifting all over the place

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by SirBrass

What're the benefits of Mu G-Four over RBF600?

Higher boiling point, visual indicator of when the fluid needs to be change (for those that cannot feel subtle changes in the pedal)

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Tainen

Tire question(s).


During my first track day (stock tires) my instructor extolled the virtue of learning on garbage tires, because it allows me to understand my mistakes far more than sticky tires, which he said cover up mistakes and slow the progression of the driver. He told me it'd be wise to not move up until I could trash a set of garbage tires in a few days, as then I'd be at the skill level where the higher spec tires would not cover up my mistakes and hamper my learning so much. Looking at my stockers after the track day... they still have a lot of life. So I guess I could push a lot harder and there's a ton more room to grow there. But I've also got a new set of wheels in the garage and was planning on dropping some solid rubber on them once I have worn out my stockers on learning on the track.


Help me decide- should I be going with more of a lower spec, intermediate tire next to continue my development? I see the DZ102s are only 100/tire in 225 size, maybe those would be a nice progression in my learning? I was originally opting to go for star specs/dzIIs as the tires for my new wheels, but thinking more about my instructor's guidance makes me want worse tires to learn faster. (He is a 20 year ITE racing veteran with uncountable podiums, co-driving dozens of different chassis, his personal ride is a 944 turbo ITE prepared car)

Stick to your stock tires until you finish them. Once you finish them ,go with what you have, as long as it's not a slick.

[RFB]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

car control is car control


I sense a misunderstanding in the core mechanics and a belief that certain tires suit a certain driving style






the oem tires are good for drifting because of the large slip angles... certainly a better choice than a V710 or something, but that doesn't mean you have to drive at those slip angles.


you can just as easily drive within the limits of the tires and not drift, with the only consequence being a slower laptime.


I did MIR, DDT and a handful of autocrosses on stock tires, my lines and attack strategies were no different than when I was running RA1s on my older cars, you figure out where the limit is and you stick to it.

Your sense of a core misunderstanding is deceiving you. I sense a pre-conceived notion.

You don't have to drive at those slip angles unless you are learning to drift.

Driving within the limits of a slippery tire do result in slow lap times.

When you figure out the limit of sticky tires you save the cost of tracking with slippery tires first.


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CERBERUS

[ddeflyer]

Originally Posted by RFB

Your sense of a core misunderstanding is deceiving you. I sense a pre-conceived notion.

You don't have to drive at those slip angles unless you are learning to drift.

Slip angle and control of that is a useful skill. By touching on those slip angles and then being able to come back from recovery and handling skills can be improved. Also, I've been told that the theoretically greatest grip is achieved with some slip angle (not crazy drifting, but some slip).

Originally Posted by RFB

Driving within the limits of a slippery tire do result in slow lap times.

And a beginner shouldn't be worrying about lap times; its a good way to end up going home in a flat bed truck.

Originally Posted by RFB

When you figure out the limit of sticky tires you save the cost of tracking with slippery tires first.

And if someone doesn't know when they are approaching the limit, then what happens?
And when they don't know what to do because they are blasting at crazy speeds and sliding through a corner as they find out the limit then what?