Today I Learned...

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

She would have wanted a larger SUV EV. They have much better ranges.
We have all sorts of charging infrastructure popping up all over around here. At they rate they are appearing it will just be another year or two and that part of the argument against them will be gone.

Bolt and the EUV range is @250 miles. I get the size thing though, some folks like bigger vehicles.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Bolt and the EUV range is @250 miles. I get the size thing though, some folks like bigger vehicles.

Well she has always wanted a 7 or 8 passenger and since this will be her "last" car before retirement I finally caved.
I am actually very impressed with the Ascent. It get's better mileage than her 2018 2.0 Outback, is about twice as fast from a stop (the 2.0 and CVT was abysmal for 0 to 60), very comfortably seats 7 and with the seats folded down has almost as much cargo capacity as some pickups. She got the Onyx Special Edition which has most of the chrome done in black and 20" black wheels (instead of 18" chrome) which looks all the world like a police vehicle and traffic actually moves to let you past!

[cjd]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

She would have wanted a larger SUV EV. They have much better ranges.
We have all sorts of charging infrastructure popping up all over around here. At they rate they are appearing it will just be another year or two and that part of the argument against them will be gone.

Yeah, that's another thing that I don't understand... Why do people want SUVs. Though there are certainly sensible uses. But they also seem to be nearly the only option lately for an EV. Maybe some day there'll be an affordable, fun sports car like the BRZ...that's also an EV.
Infra is definitely improving, but so many problems with stations not working well, or at all. It'll get there. And I can't justify another IC purchase if I needed even today. Battery snafu aside, I do wish we'd just gotten the Bolt.

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by cjd

Yeah, that's another thing that I don't understand... Why do people want SUVs.

The BRZ was the largest car I've owned. I never considered it a small car.
I have no idea how people get around town in SUVs. It is a known issue amongst local councils because car park spaces weren't made with SUVs in mind.

Funny story. Driving in Sydney in mum's Yaris. I squeeze in between two stationary buses at about 20 km/h. The car behind tries to follow and breaks a side mirror. That gave me a huge grin.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by cjd

Yeah, that's another thing that I don't understand... Why do people want SUVs. Though there are certainly sensible uses. But they also seem to be nearly the only option lately for an EV. Maybe some day there'll be an affordable, fun sports car like the BRZ...that's also an EV.
Infra is definitely improving, but so many problems with stations not working well, or at all. It'll get there. And I can't justify another IC purchase if I needed even today. Battery snafu aside, I do wish we'd just gotten the Bolt.

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

The BRZ was the largest car I've owned. I never considered it a small car.
I have no idea how people get around town in SUVs. It is a known issue amongst local councils because car park spaces weren't made with SUVs in mind.

Funny story. Driving in Sydney in mum's Yaris. I squeeze in between two stationary buses at about 20 km/h. The car behind tries to follow and breaks a side mirror. That gave me a huge grin.

Once upon a time in North America the huge 4 door sedan was king and the station wagon ruled as queen. You could put 6 to 9 people in most mainstream vehicles and travel for days.
Europe and Asia stayed tiny as they just didn’t have the space or travel distance of North America. For some odd reason Australia went the way of the UK and also adopted small cars.
As North America’s population grew rapidly through the 50s and 60s ( you could call it a boom I suppose) the sedans and agony got bigger and bigger until early 70s when they had reached an almost unsustainable size. Although there was an almost nonexistent group of single men and women that wanted smaller cars they did not make much impact on the buying public. Only the most diehard, one day to be called “Hipsters” would even remotely consider the trickle of small European or Japanese’s cars the made it there.
Then one day in the mid 70s some bad men in the Middle East decided they wanted a whole lot more money for their oil. At about the same time families start to shrink in size and average distance driven dropped dramatically.
Since those European and Japanese cars had improved in quality, got far better mileage and families no longer needed to sit 6 kids they started to sell like mad.
The American companies went “oh shit we need to do something fast” so they started to partner with those prior rejected companies and large sedans shrank to half their size and wagons just died off.
Eventually the sedans shrank so much that only a handful of expensive luxury brands had any room at all.
This did not last long. People soon were crying because cars were not big enough even with fewer kids. A couple of companies said “you want more room? Hold my beer.” and the beginnings of the SUV were born.
People loved them. They had the space and convenience of a large sedan or wagon without the cost or bad fuel mileage. They now rule the planet.
So when somebody says “I don’t get why they are so popular” they need to look beyond what they do with a car and see the bigger picture.
The real question for 99.9% of the car buying public is “why would anybody drive a car that only seats two and has zero space?”

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

and has zero space

When did quantum mechanics enter the conversation?

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

When did quantum mechanics enter the conversation?

It has always been key. I understand that Henry Ford invented it with the Model T and then everybody stole it.

[cjd]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

People loved them. They had the space and convenience of a large sedan or wagon without the cost or bad fuel mileage. They now rule the planet.
So when somebody says “I don’t get why they are so popular” they need to look beyond what they do with a car and see the bigger picture.
The real question for 99.9% of the car buying public is “why would anybody drive a car that only seats two and has zero space?”

I understand half the form factor. It's a wagon with a lift kit.
The wagon makes sense. The lift kit I don't understand.
To be fair, I think the battery weight lets you drive EV SUVs hard without feeling tippy and otherwise changes the dynamics - and the extra height is helpful with battery layout. But otherwise they feel really crappy at highway speeds to me. The lift is to go off road. The truckishness may be to haul a trailer. But neither are reality for most, and slow is much safer for both too.

I can totally get behind confusion about sports cars for most. I just think the SUV should be similarly niche.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by cjd

I understand half the form factor. It's a wagon with a lift kit.
The wagon makes sense. The lift kit I don't understand.
To be fair, I think the battery weight lets you drive EV SUVs hard without feeling tippy and otherwise changes the dynamics - and the extra height is helpful with battery layout. But otherwise they feel really crappy at highway speeds to me. The lift is to go off road. The truckishness may be to haul a trailer. But neither are reality for most, and slow is much safer for both too.

I can totally get behind confusion about sports cars for most. I just think the SUV should be similarly niche.

Could go back to the minivan era that I sort of skipped.
The height does help in winter but yes it is overkill for most of the year.
I have never driven an electric SUV yet so have no idea how they actually drive. Distinctly possible that had I convinced her to try one I may have been the one to change my mind.

[cjd]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Could go back to the minivan era that I sort of skipped.
The height does help in winter but yes it is overkill for most of the year.
I have never driven an electric SUV yet so have no idea how they actually drive. Distinctly possible that had I convinced her to try one I may have been the one to change my mind.

Yeah, I haven't driven an electric SUV either... think my previous comment did make it sound like I had. The regular ones freak me out though. The driving experience on electric though... even the Volt is just fun on-throttle and feels anemic once the battery has been run through (though it's a boat still as far as handling... decent for what it is though). For battery stuff, it's easy to actually plan out when/where you'd run into trouble, and then evaluate whether you'd *actually* run into trouble by checking charging options along the way. It's a real problem still, to be sure, unless you have a Tesla. With both longer range than most others on the market and a MUCH more stable charging network, that's still the best buy if you DO have range considerations off home-base.

Minivans make sense to me. They're actually incredibly sensible, just have an image problem. The lower deck makes for much easier loading/unloading vs most SUVs capable of actually hauling stuff (the micro/mini SUVs obviously don't have that kind of room). And they're easier to get into/out of than most SUVs too. I think there's a middle ground but IIRC even getting into a Subaru Crosstrek I think had a little hop UP to the seat.
I owned a truck at one time, and it was a sensible thing - 4cyl RWD extended cab S10 with good fuel economy, plenty of space to schlep stuff as an art student... but it sat pretty low and wasn't much fun to drive. Pure function. Minivan would have done well too but they were out of my price range. Growing up we always had a full size van. Those freak me out too, honestly...
If I run out of fun car options, I'll have a lovely empty garage spot. Or maybe something purely functional will eventually show up on the market and the hobbies I spend the most time on will shift. Whee.

[Spuds]

My thoughts, SUVs came about because everyone who has kids now grew up with the shitty minivans in the 80s and 90s. It was a sign of giving up and being practical/cheap. On the other hand, people who drove SUVs were interesting. And everyone wants to feel like they are cool.

[Sapphireho]

SUV is just the modern station wagon. The generation that grew up with station wagons were too cool for station wagons, but boy were they practical, so they lifted them and gave them a different name.

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by Sapphireho

SUV is just the modern station wagon. The generation that grew up with station wagons were too cool for station wagons, but boy were they practical, so they lifted them and gave them a different name.

That's a better way of saying it.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Could go back to the minivan era that I sort of skipped. The height does help in winter but yes it is overkill for most of the year.
I have never driven an electric SUV yet so have no idea how they actually drive. Distinctly possible that had I convinced her to try one I may have been the one to change my mind.

I was going to mention the minivan phase. To me the Chevy Astro was the perfect family car. It wasn't technically a minivan, you could load it with up to 6 people comfortably, 7 if the three in the back were kids, it was easy to get in and out of, and it would tow about 6,000 pounds without breathing hard. We had two of them with over 500,000 miles between them.

I've driven the Mach E, at speed. It drove well, and handled nicely (no FRS but was fun).

Originally Posted by Spuds

My thoughts, SUVs came about because everyone who has kids now grew up with the shitty minivans in the 80s and 90s. It was a sign of giving up and being practical/cheap. On the other hand, people who drove SUVs were interesting. And everyone wants to feel like they are cool.

Yep, hit the nail on the head.

Originally Posted by Sapphireho

SUV is just the modern station wagon. The generation that grew up with station wagons were too cool for station wagons, but boy were they practical, so they lifted them and gave them a different name.

I would say a crossover is more station wagon than an SUV. SUV is a truck with a bed cover, crossover is a "fat stationwagon". Jay Leno, in his review of the Lyriq calls it that, and the GM engineer cringes because, you know, marketing.