2022 Twin to STR

[steverife]

I don't understand what SSC has to do with Street Touring.

[DocWalt]

Originally Posted by foshjowler

The difference between the power in the ND1 and ND2 and the gen 1 and gen 2 cars is roughly the same percentage-wise, and that's accounting for the gen 2 cars being underrated. The chassis is so much the same that almost every part bolts right up.

The first gen cars are dominant in two classes, one of which is a spec class specifically made for the car. They shouldn't have that kind of dominance in multiple classes when the second gen car can barely touch a trophy. I'm still of the belief that SSC should include the gen 1.5 cars as well.

False.


They make the same power until ~6500 RPM where the ND2 just pulls ahead. I worked a LOT with Karwan on his tune for the ND2s and I have a LOT of seat time in both generation cars over the past few years. We've tested it time and time again at locals and national events and it's pretty much irrelevant which ND you're in. The ND2 is harder to drive than the ND1 because of various drivetrain protection systems that are undefeatable too, so there's that.

I still think you're barking up the wrong tree. Move the ND out of STR to be with the Fiata or make an STR2 and move S2k, NC, new Twin there and Fiata to STR.

[jdrxb9]

Originally Posted by DocWalt

My videos from NJ Pro. ...

Happy to find these posts - I was working corner 4 during your run group and, as a former gen1 owner, I have to say your BRZ sounds great - best new one I've heard for sure - maybe best of both gens.


PS - S/ST video looks 'tame' after watching M video for a while - e.g. youtu.be/3-pGX2yJ2P4

[foshjowler]

Originally Posted by steverife

I don't understand what SSC has to do with Street Touring.

It's more or less street touring lite, and is a class dedicated to the first-gen twins that allows for mods, be-it spec mods.

[foshjowler]

Originally Posted by DocWalt

False.


They make the same power until ~6500 RPM where the ND2 just pulls ahead. I worked a LOT with Karwan on his tune for the ND2s and I have a LOT of seat time in both generation cars over the past few years. We've tested it time and time again at locals and national events and it's pretty much irrelevant which ND you're in. The ND2 is harder to drive than the ND1 because of various drivetrain protection systems that are undefeatable too, so there's that.

I still think you're barking up the wrong tree. Move the ND out of STR to be with the Fiata or make an STR2 and move S2k, NC, new Twin there and Fiata to STR.

False.

I'm barking up the correct tree. You gave more great examples of a new car coming out and killing the previous-gen or dominant car. STR S2k and NC were all but killed by the ND.

New generations of cars come out and are faster than the old ones. That's the way all racing disciplines work. Short of creating a new class every time a new generation of a car comes out, it's how it's going to be. The first-gen twins have had a long run of being competitive in multiple classes, but things change. If you buy a new car and expect it to be super competitive for 10+ years, then that's on you. There are cheaper classes that don't change often, see STS and ES.

[DocWalt]

Originally Posted by foshjowler

False.

I'm barking up the correct tree. You gave more great examples of a new car coming out and killing the previous-gen or dominant car. STR S2k and NC were all but killed by the ND.

New generations of cars come out and are faster than the old ones. That's the way all racing disciplines work. Short of creating a new class every time a new generation of a car comes out, it's how it's going to be. The first-gen twins have had a long run of being competitive in multiple classes, but things change. If you buy a new car and expect it to be super competitive for 10+ years, then that's on you. There are cheaper classes that don't change often, see STS and ES.

STAC can right the wrongs of putting the ND in STR in the first place and instead you'd rather kill a different healthy class?

[e1_griego]

Originally Posted by DocWalt

I still think you're barking up the wrong tree. Move the ND out of STR to be with the Fiata or make an STR2 and move S2k, NC, new Twin there and Fiata to STR.

This is exactly where I landed in my thinking as well.

I should write a letter here soon...

[steverife]

Originally Posted by foshjowler

It's more or less street touring lite, and is a class dedicated to the first-gen twins that allows for mods, be-it spec mods.

Having ran it and STX, I'd say that it is more street plus. And I can't imagine very many wanting to spend a bunch of money on bushings and emissions junk and fasteners and ECUs and whatnot to drive a slower/less fun car while people whisper about you having a tune.

[otter]

Originally Posted by DocWalt

I still think you're barking up the wrong tree. Move the ND out of STR to be with the Fiata or make an STR2 and move S2k, NC, new Twin there and Fiata to STR.

To me this seems like the general way ST needs to go - a rethink of the classes/balance and making it a more enticing next step. Likely needs to go hand in hand with sunsetting Street Prepared to avoid the "we already have too many classes!" response. I've got a general feel that the overall structure across all classes is dated and doesn't fit the modern era of cars/enthusiasts - no secret that CAM and XS are just band-aids for a larger issue. But I appreciate that you can't just go and making sweeping changes that screw over people who have years of development in their cars.

Disclaimer: I'm just a random midpack autocrosser who has no influence over any *AC members despite what I might think after there's a few beers in me at a tour event.

[DocWalt]

Originally Posted by otter

To me this seems like the general way ST needs to go - a rethink of the classes/balance and making it a more enticing next step. Likely needs to go hand in hand with sunsetting Street Prepared to avoid the "we already have too many classes!" response. I've got a general feel that the overall structure across all classes is dated and doesn't fit the modern era of cars/enthusiasts - no secret that CAM and XS are just band-aids for a larger issue. But I appreciate that you can't just go and making sweeping changes that screw over people who have years of development in their cars.

Disclaimer: I'm just a random midpack autocrosser who has no influence over any *AC members despite what I might think after there's a few beers in me at a tour event.

From what I've heard, this sort of sweeping re-org is coming...

I support it as much as it will annoy people it's best for the sport.

[otter]

I've heard the demise of SP is coming but not much about the rest of the broader class structures. It'll be interesting but agree that it's best for the sport.

[Kelse92]

Originally Posted by DocWalt

From what I've heard, this sort of sweeping re-org is coming...

I support it as much as it will annoy people it's best for the sport.

I agree, it probably needs to happen if we want to see any long-term growth and progress. Interested in seeing what happens...

[conehead]

The SCCA classing system is a complete disaster and needs to be scrapped entirely. Having a dominant car that you must have and then changing that every few years is insanity and it drives regular people away. The biggest draw to autox is that you can use your normal car, but then most people go to a few events, realize they can never win in their car and quit. The NASA style performance point system is so much better. It lets you buy the car you want, mod it to the level you want, and be competitive.

[Molez93]

^ Partially true. I would argue the frustrated new-ish person ought to consider the right vehicle & prep as a necessary but very much insufficient criteria for success. I suspect most people in this thread know it already.

If you don’t spend enough time focused on getting better, it doesn’t really matter what car you lose in.