Next Gen BRZ thoughts

[Broseph]

The big difference is having a factory turbocharged vehicle and modding from there vs an NA platform and adding FI to it. Completely different deal for most buyers. I have no desire, and I’d wager I’m not alone here, to take on the task of adding FI to a stock NA car vs adding a COBB AccessPort plus a few bolt-ones to arrive at the same end. One is cake and will be a lot more reliable as the car has already been set up with proper compression, cooling, fuel, drivetrain etc. for a turbo and is easily returned back to stock with great resale.
The other involves a lot of work relying on all aftermarket stuff to work perfectly and be reliable in the long-term. That’s a significantly higher outlay of cash with potential unknown returns, questionable reliability and a major change to the car that could affect resale.
MOST buyers don’t want to get into that, whereas those same buyers wouldn’t think twice about dropping $1K for an easy Stg2 setup and the peace of mind of reliability.

[DandoX]

Originally Posted by botbs

So no more GR Corolla ?

I don't know, I merely saw this image on reddit and thought it seemed legit. I don't think this discludes anything.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Broseph

The big difference is having a factory turbocharged vehicle and modding from there vs an NA platform and adding FI to it. Completely different deal for most buyers. I have no desire, and I’d wager I’m not alone here, to take on the task of adding FI to a stock NA car vs adding a COBB AccessPort plus a few bolt-ones to arrive at the same end. One is cake and will be a lot more reliable as the car has already been set up with proper compression, cooling, fuel, drivetrain etc. for a turbo and is easily returned back to stock with great resale.
The other involves a lot of work relying on all aftermarket stuff to work perfectly and be reliable in the long-term. That’s a significantly higher outlay of cash with potential unknown returns, questionable reliability and a major change to the car that could affect resale.
MOST buyers don’t want to get into that, whereas those same buyers wouldn’t think twice about dropping $1K for an easy Stg2 setup and the peace of mind of reliability.

Sounds like a Fiat 124 or a 4cyl Zupra would be right up your ally

[Broseph]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

Sounds like a Fiat 124 or a 4cyl Zupra would be right up your ally

Nope. No 6MT, no care on the Zupra.

2+2, DIT and 6MT required.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Broseph

The big difference is having a factory turbocharged vehicle and modding from there vs an NA platform and adding FI to it. Completely different deal for most buyers. I have no desire, and I’d wager I’m not alone here, to take on the task of adding FI to a stock NA car vs adding a COBB AccessPort plus a few bolt-ones to arrive at the same end. One is cake and will be a lot more reliable as the car has already been set up with proper compression, cooling, fuel, drivetrain etc. for a turbo and is easily returned back to stock with great resale.
The other involves a lot of work relying on all aftermarket stuff to work perfectly and be reliable in the long-term. That’s a significantly higher outlay of cash with potential unknown returns, questionable reliability and a major change to the car that could affect resale.
MOST buyers don’t want to get into that, whereas those same buyers wouldn’t think twice about dropping $1K for an easy Stg2 setup and the peace of mind of reliability.

But to get that OEM reliability at 300HP they are going to have to beef up every single other aspect of the cars. Yes, the aftermarket can drop a FI system in without worrying about the rest but the manufacturer can not. There is not a hope in hell you would see a 300HP FI stock version built for just an extra $1,000 price tag. You would be talking at least $5K and then everybody would be whining about how expensive the car is and they may as well get a Supra (which they would also modify since they need more power).

[Broseph]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

But to get that OEM reliability at 300HP they are going to have to beef up every single other aspect of the cars. Yes, the aftermarket can drop a FI system in without worrying about the rest but the manufacturer can not. There is not a hope in hell you would see a 300HP FI stock version built for just an extra $1,000 price tag. You would be talking at least $5K and then everybody would be whining about how expensive the car is and they may as well get a Supra (which they would also modify since they need more power).

Who has ever said they want 300HP stock? I never have. The only people that keep exaggerating that number are the naysayers.
Who has ever said they expect a turbocharged BRZ for only $1K more than current? I never have. The only people that keep exaggerating that number are the naysayers.
I’d be perfectly fine with a $32K-$35K turbocharged, updated BRZ and I bet many others would be too. Again, the turbocharged WRX is $27K base with a beefy AWD system on top - there’s way more car there than a BRZ.
I have no doubt they could pull off a much simpler RWD turbocharged setup and keep costs under control. They’ve been doing that and more with the WRX for 2 decades, and are still doing it.
The Supra is just a different car altogether. More luxo 2-seater auto BMW. That may appeal to some, but for those that want a factory turbocharged BRZ, it simply misses the mark in many ways.
I’ve never seen the Zupra as a rich-man’s BRZ, I see it as a completely different type of car, which it is.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by gtengr

I find it amusing how many people think some of us are silly for wanting this car as a lightweight RWD platform to be at +300hp in a factory package. The vast FI aftermarket that probably grew up quicker than the FI aftermarket for any other car in history should be a sign that the demand is there.

Originally Posted by Broseph

Who has ever aid they want 300HP stock? I never have. The only people that keep exaggerating that number are the naysayers.
Who has ever said they expect a turbocharged BRZ for only $1K more than current? I never have. The only people that keep exaggerating that number are the naysayers.
I’d be perfectly fine with a $32K-$35K turbocharged, updated BRZ and I bet many others would be too. Again, the turbocharged WRX is $27K base with a beefy AWD system on top - there’s way more car there than a BRZ.
I have no doubt they could pull off a much simpler RWD turbocharged setup and keep costs under control. They’ve been doing that and more with the WRX for 2 decades, and are still doing it.
The Supra is just a different car altogether. More luxo 2-seater auto BMW. That may appeal to some, but for those that want a factory turbocharged BRZ, it simply misses the mark in many ways.

The 300HP is the most common number thrown out there. The last 5 or 6 posts before your were in fact discussing that very number. It is not the number of choice of the naysayers but the go to minimum of the needs more power crowd.
YOU distinctly said $1,000 in your post. Was that not what you meant?
The base WRX is crap when it comes to equipment. They make them cheaper since they use an old old platform and engine that have paid for them selves many times over on scale of manufacturing. The BRZ is not such an animal and the economy of scale means it costs more to make and therefore buy.

[Broseph]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

The 300HP is the most common number thrown out there. The last 5 or 6 posts before your were in fact discussing that very number. It is not the number of choice of the naysayers but the go to minimum of the needs more power crowd.
YOU distinctly said $1,000 in your post. Was that not what you meant?
The base WRX is crap when it comes to equipment. They make them cheaper since they use an old old platform and engine that have paid for them selves many times over on scale of manufacturing. The BRZ is not such an animal and the economy of scale means it costs more to make and therefore buy.

I said nobody would bat an eye dropping $1K to mod an ALREADY turbocharged BRZ. I never said what that turbocharged BRZ would cost.
Quite a different deal for most buyers in this demographic forking our $4-$5K on a quality aftermarket turbo kit.
Are you saying the BRZ is high-rent luxo compared to a base WRX? LOL.

It doesn't get more low-rent than a BRZ, and I'm fine with that. High-rent stuff adds weight. Bad argument.
And they could use that same engine, be it FA20DIT or FA24DIT that they've used forever. Bad economies of scale argument. They've already got everything they need, except for some creative FMIC piping and a new chassis/drive train which they'll undoubtedly be updating anyway with Gen2.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Broseph

I said nobody would bat an eye dropping $1K to mod an ALREADY turbocharged BRZ. I never said what that turbocharged BRZ would cost.
Quite a different deal for most buyers in this demographic forking our $4-$5K on a quality aftermarket turbo kit.
Are you saying the BRZ is high-rent luxo compared to a base WRX? LOL.

It doesn't get more low-rent than a BRZ, and I'm fine with that. High-rent stuff adds weight. Bad argument.
And they could use that same engine, be it FA20DIT or FA24DIT that they've used forever. Bad economies of scale argument. They've already got everything they need, except for some creative FMIC piping and a new chassis/drive train which they'll undoubtedly be updating anyway with Gen2.

OK so They initial cost of the vehicle means they would still be forjing out$5K more to start with and then adding their $1K tune. You know anybody modding a higher HP car are not just going to tune it and call it a day rght?

The economy of scale comparison stands. Having the parts bin pieces and being able to use them are not the same thing.

[Red-86]

Originally Posted by gtengr

I find it amusing how many people think some of us are silly for wanting this car as a lightweight RWD platform to be at +300hp in a factory package.

I don’t think it’s silly, I just don’t think it’s realistic.

Look, Toyota already give you an option if you want a RWD coupe with more power than the Twins offer - it’s called the Supra. Now that they are expanding the places the B48 turbo 4 version will be sold, including the US, there is even less room, performance or price wise, for a turbo Twin that risks outperforming the 4 cylinder Supra. I realise Subaru doesn’t have any other RWD coupe options, but the entire Twin project is largely driven by Toyota anyhow, even if Subaru has the job of manufacturing them.

The fact Toyota has that 4 cylinder Supra means that a mkII Twin is quite likely to not increase in power much at all. Work back from the 255HP B48 Supra and you only have a small window for power gains for the next Twin - somewhere between 205-250HP. Even then, if the next Twin is substantially lighter than the Supra, it risks having a better PTW ratio with even a modest figure like 240HP.

It makes no marketing or financial sense for Toyota to cut its own lunch and undermine the 4 pot Supra. The Twins exist at the bottom of the sportscar product range, not the middle. In fact, much as I hate to say it, the existence of that turbo 4 Supra makes it an odd and increasingly less relevant business case for a gen II Twin. It would make more sense to push a cheaper, stripper model of the B48 Supra as the new entry sportscar, and just retire the Twins at the end of their current life. I really don’t want that to happen, I prefer a lighter, cheaper, basic sportscar, but you have to be realistic about these things.

I’d love to be proven wrong, and to see them release a 280HP turbo Twin, I just don’t see it happening. FWIW my best ‘guess’ atm is a NA 220HP version of the FA24, or similar power from a downsized turbo 1.8 or even 1.6 from the existing Subaru engine bin.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Broseph

Nope. No 6MT, no care on the Zupra.

2+2, DIT and 6MT required.

I know. I’m just poking fun at you.

[Broseph]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

You know anybody modding a higher HP car are not just going to tune it and call it a day rght?

This is actually the VAST majority of folks that mod STIs, WRXs, LGTs, EVOs, BMWs etc etc. Stg2 tune + Downpipe/maybe full turboback, call it a day. Some, maybe a Protune if they live near a good tuner.



Then you have a much, much smaller percentage that do full forged internals, bigger turbos, elaborate tuning/fuel etc. But by far, the COBB OTS Stg1/Stg2 are the most common, and where most folks stop. They usually move on to other bits - suspension, cosmetic etc., get bored and sell it, or wreck it.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Broseph

It doesn't get more low-rent than a BRZ, and I'm fine with that. High-rent stuff adds weight. Bad argument.
And they could use that same engine, be it FA20DIT or FA24DIT that they've used forever. Bad economies of scale argument. They've already got everything they need, except for some creative FMIC piping and a new chassis/drive train which they'll undoubtedly be updating anyway with Gen2.

What? You know that the only thing Subaru in the powertrain is the engine? So Toyota, who has done the vast majority of the development and design work on the car already, would need to go through and source the other bits from their parts bin. And Toyota has already played their hand with the 4cyl Supra. They aren't going to bring out anything within the price range or performance of that car. The twin will stay the basic RWD affordable sports coupe that Tada envisioned and designed.

Plus the FA20, DIT or not, is not that great of a performance engine. Do not want.

[Opie]

Originally Posted by Broseph

I’d be perfectly fine with a $32K-$35K turbocharged, updated BRZ and I bet many others would be too.

A top of the line BRZ is already $32K-$35K, and you think an all new gen with a turbo would be the same price as the outgoing, non-turbo model? LOL