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BRZ Second-Gen (2022+) -- General Topics General topics for the second-gen BRZ


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Old 04-17-2021, 06:20 PM   #113
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Not seeing any ND2s at the track, but I'm not worried about them... I don't think the ND2's performance should be very different from the FT86 with normal trackworthy tires and brake pads on both, and some front camber for the FT86...
Anyway, if absolute performance numbers were the primary concern then of course neither the MX5 or the FT86 would be for me.

"Regardless" of them being in a different class? More like *because* they are in a different class.

There are a host of considerations for most people. Another for me was, as I already mentioned, I didn't want a convertible.

I'm a tiny bit of a stickler on interiors (kept me from buying a WRX years ago, also C6, probably some others), and I love the BRZ PP's interior. Maybe as much as I loved my S2000's. Maybe I like simpler more spartan interiors than luxury yacht interiors...

How to build smaller lighter-weight cars again.

Well, they don't *need* to. I would just like for them to.


Cool car in it's way, obviously fast as hell, not my thing though.

I just think it's a shame that companies that used to build minimalist lightweight FUN cars don't do so any more.

This sentence is so awkwardly worded than I'm not sure how to answer it... I'll just restate that I think it's a shame they don't try to keep weight in check. For at least their lowest-digit series anyway. OK, maybe my answer is: It is *precisely* "the feeling of a heavier vehicle" that make them less desirable for me.

May be your theme. In my experience, lighter-weight cars are just more fun. I've been around the track in GTRs, Camaros, etc. etc. and there *is* a fun in the outright speed, but to me the *greater* fun is found in lighter-weight cars like the FT86 and yeah, Miatae. And Lotus Elise... All MANY seconds slower than a GTR. But to me, more fun.

Well, yeah, I'm speaking my opinion. FT86 was the first new car I've bought since 1994, because, yeah, it checked off most of the important boxes on my hierarchy of needs for a car.

??? Yeah, I'll say it again, I've driven on the street and been around the track in a wide variety of cars, and I have found that I enjoy lighter-weight cars vs. heavier ones. A lot more. No car is a "holy grail", every car is a host of compromises. But yeah, weight is a big factor for me.

Again, it's the lightest-weight FR 2+2 you can get in the U.S., by far. I believe it's also the lightest rwd fixed-roof coupe regardless of seat count since the 4C coupe went away...

But it's WRONG!

I think generally we will have to agree to disagree on some points. Obviously the thing about cars being special.

I find it acceptable that the feel of a heavier vehicle is definitely something that can be seen very undesirable for some drivers. I myself do enjoy the feel of a lightweight car and notice the difference easily between as *little* as 300 lbs.

That being said, from my perspective I enjoy the outrageous handling dynamics some of these heavier cars are able to put out. I'll use the CTR as an example as I own it, but it's crazy what it does when you wrap your mind around how heavy it is and that it's FWD.

But yes, agree to disagree, weight for me is not entirely a detriment, acceptable weight for you is nearly the most important attribute.

BTW, people outside of this group, many many other communities, consider the CTR as lightweight.. Fun wheel drive strikes again.
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Old 04-17-2021, 06:59 PM   #114
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That's just it though, it makes zero sense to buy a FT86 over an MX5 if performance is of any concern, the only time the FT86 becomes a option is when personal practicality is considered, regardless of them being in a different class.
Seems like a pretty bold (over)statement. Grassroots Motorsports made a good video and posted data explaining where the ND2 falls short of the 86 on track, specifically driver feedback/feel and suspension. Acceleration graphs were surprisingly similar, as were laptimes.



At the end of the day, there are compelling reasons to choose either car that have nothing to do with practicality.
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Old 04-17-2021, 07:41 PM   #115
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Seems like a pretty bold (over)statement. Grassroots Motorsports made a good video and posted data explaining where the ND2 falls short of the 86 on track, specifically driver feedback/feel and suspension. Acceleration graphs were surprisingly similar, as were laptimes.

At the end of the day, there are compelling reasons to choose either car that have nothing to do with practicality.
No surprise with the very similar acceleration plots, the cars have nearly identical power/weight. Great vid but this guy says he would want to put the MX5's "gem" of an engine into the 86? Replacing 205hp with 181hp?. I mean, that's fine, if you wanna go even slower!
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Old 04-17-2021, 08:30 PM   #116
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No surprise with the very similar acceleration plots, the cars have nearly identical power/weight. Great vid but this guy says he would want to put the MX5's "gem" of an engine into the 86? Replacing 205hp with 181hp?. I mean, that's fine, if you wanna go even slower!
Haha yeah the ND2's ultra light weight is what's making the engine feel strong, but the engine by itself doesn't seem anything special.

For the acceleration plots, agree on the p/w ratio, but I expected with the ND2's better torque-to-weight ratio it would pull out of corners better. Didn't seem to be the case though.
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Old 04-17-2021, 08:55 PM   #117
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You're missing out, and to claim that no modern BMW is special is pretty narrow sighted.

Enjoy your golden child 86 though, can't believe you'd drive that 2800 lbs porker when 2300 lbs miatas exist. Someone should've told Nissan a 3800 lbs GTR would've been a PoS.

Low centre of gravity and low weight does a sportscar make.

If engine is what matters most to you then yes all BMWs with big torque is "special" to you. And for the money of a GTR I would rather have a 718 Cayman GT4 or Evora GT410 despite being slower in a straight line. You're actually the narrow sighted one like a typical American car guy whose focus is generally power>chassis and nobody called the 86 the greatest thing ever.
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Old 04-17-2021, 09:04 PM   #118
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If engine is what matters most to you then yes all BMWs with big torque is "special" to you. And for the money of a GTR I would rather have a 718 Cayman GT4 or Evora GT410 despite being slower in a straight line. You're actually the narrow sighted one like a typical American car guy whose focus is generally power>chassis and nobody called the 86 the greatest thing ever.
Lol okay buddy. Big brain on you I see.
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Old 04-17-2021, 09:55 PM   #119
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Boys, boys!! Can’t we all just get along?! Here’s the deal. Some people like some kinds of cars, and some people like others. It’s why we have a choice! BRZ PP is fantastic! So is that damn frickin SEE TEE ARE. I prefer lightweight and tossable, though I nearly bought a 392 Scat Pack Challenger Wide Body last year. What a frickin car!! And I could about get the BRZ in the trunk. But I needed a truck so I bought a Jeep Mohave instead. You can drift that bastard down a dirt road at 60 and it’s a frickin blast!! Jordanwolf is always entertaining as f^*k, and I think ZDan is the damn man about 90% of the time. The only scrote here is that damn DarkSidefrs, and even that whacked sour bastard is entertaining. So, feel the love boys and ease up.
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Old 04-17-2021, 10:01 PM   #120
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Boys, boys!! Can’t we all just get along?! Here’s the deal. Some people like some kinds of cars, and some people like others. It’s why we have a choice! BRZ PP is fantastic! So is that damn frickin SEE TEE ARE. I prefer lightweight and tossable, though I nearly bought a 392 Scat Pack Challenger Wide Body last year. What a frickin car!! And I could about get the BRZ on the trunk. But I needed a truck so I bought a Jeep Mohave instead. You can drift that bastard down a dirt road at 60 and it’s a frickin blast!! Jordanwolf is always entertaining as f^*k, and I think ZDan is the damn man about 90% of the time. The only **** here that damn DarkSidefrs, and even that whacked sour bastard is entertaining. So, feel the love boys and ease up.
Sincerely,
Dad
Thanks dad! Can we go play baseball now, you promised you would after you came back from the convenience store and that was 15 years 20 years ago!
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Old 04-17-2021, 10:08 PM   #121
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Thanks dad! Can we go play baseball now, you promised you would after you came back from the convenience store and that was 15 years 20 years ago!
Well son, the problem was, the cat’s in the cradle and the silver spoon, little boy blue and the man in the moon, “when you comin home dad?” “I don’t know when, but we’ll get together then son. You know we’ll have a good time then.” But I still love you Jordan, and yo momma too.
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Old 04-18-2021, 09:57 AM   #122
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Haha yeah the ND2's ultra light weight is what's making the engine feel strong, but the engine by itself doesn't seem anything special.
Exactly, I dunno why so many, even on these forums, are gaga over the MX5 engine, praising it over the significantly more powerful FA20. I think it 100% comes down to I4 sound vs. flat-4 sound which is inherently a bit more agricultural-sounding.

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For the acceleration plots, agree on the p/w ratio, but I expected with the ND2's better torque-to-weight ratio it would pull out of corners better. Didn't seem to be the case though.
In one part of the speed plot you can see the Miata pulling slightly ahead and then the 86 catching and pulling ahead higher in the revs.

But long/short, acceleration is *everything* to do with power/weight, and pretty much nothing to do with "torque/weight" which is by itself meaningless.
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Old 04-18-2021, 01:50 PM   #123
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But long/short, acceleration is *everything* to do with power/weight, and pretty much nothing to do with "torque/weight" which is by itself meaningless.
Hmmm... curious why you think that. AUC seems pretty relevant to me. All things being equal, I'd expect the car with the fat midrange to out-accelerate the car with the flat torque curve even if their peak power is exactly the same hp/rpm. On every upshift when the first car lands back in the midrange, it should pull ahead due to the torque advantage don't you think?
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Old 04-18-2021, 06:23 PM   #124
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You miss my point entirely.

There is a reason I mentioned MX5 and GTR, yet you glossed over one. I don't think Porsche or BMW need to learn anything from the FT86, a car with a weak engine and huge weight compared to a MX5. If anything, they can learn from the MX5.

All I've read so far is the expected bias from owners of the Twins, you don't want to respect other cars because they don't fit your needs/wants, yet when you try to argue something you say the twins are practical.

Maybe I should give more examples of various cars at various weights, then you'd understand. Maybe something like the 3500lbs Gallardo or 3800lbs NSX or even 3100lbs Evora, oh and honorable mention 2400lbs A110.

The twins are good cars, but not a benchmark by a long shot.
The twins' quest for light weight is hampered by cost cutting. Another reason I'd love an upmarket version, imagine how much steel could be replaced with aluminum for another $10k. However, considering their price and cargo capacity they are a reasonable weight and the best in the industry. The Gallardo carries a huge engine and NSX is full of batteries so their weight is expected, though still disappointing. I'd like the Evora to be 200lbs lighter but maybe with a V6 and back seats this is the limit. The Cayman and M2 don't have any excuses for their weight. Cayman as a little 4cylinder expensive coupe should be 2700lbs, even with a luxury interior. M2, even with its straight 6 and BMW luxury should be 3300.
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Old 04-18-2021, 06:36 PM   #125
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[QUOTE=Jordanwolf;3424354]Are you really going to look at a GTR and call it an overweight pig./QUOTE]
Yes, because it is and handles like it. It's a brute that get's by on big power, AWD, and big tires. No one has ever called it "nimble" or praised its steering. Mostly because of its weight it's always been a niche vehicle, rather than a benchmark sports car.
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Old 04-18-2021, 06:45 PM   #126
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If weight such a concern, go on a diet. Most Americans are fata$$es to begin with. Problem solved
I see this all the time on bike forums discussing expensive parts weighed in grams. Never thought I'd see it in a car forum talking about hundreds of pounds. I doubt you could find a twin owner with more than 50lbs they could lose. The biggies seem to drive trucks and SUVs.
Next suggestion: "Dump your girlfriend to save 120lbs!"
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