follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Delicious Tuning
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB > Off-Topic Discussions > Other Vehicles & General Automotive Discussions

Other Vehicles & General Automotive Discussions Discuss all other cars and automotive news here.


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-17-2021, 11:18 PM   #85
RToyo86
Senior Member
 
RToyo86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Drives: 17 Asphalt 86
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 2,148
Thanks: 1,694
Thanked 2,168 Times in 1,114 Posts
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
You said Musk, but now you are quoting Tesla. There is a distinct difference.

What extra hardware is needed? I am aware of no other required hardware. If you can drive a car using vision then a computer could do the same. What’s different? Any additional technologies like radar or lidar or whatever will only enhance the abilities beyond human abilities, but that isn’t necessary for level 4/5 autonomy. And the cameras could be inside and outside the car and in multiple locations, which already improves over the driver’s single field of view, so snow or any other weather condition shouldn’t pose any other issue.
I mixed the two.

The main difference between the eye and a camera lens is what it is connected to. Our brains are far more complex and advanced than a computer. Maybe an AI system to handle information on a screen the way we do efficiently and react in a similar fashion. that doesn't exist so..

You have more faith in technology than I do.
I don't have faith that technology will always work. Especially something as complex as driving, specifically navigating. When you start adding a ton of complicated systems together that need to operate Perfectly you have less room for error, especially since things break, degrade or are defective or the programing is flawed.

When it comes to winter driving; doesn't seem like snow driving will be a thing any time soon. Systems aren't capable of adjusting properly to less than favorable road conditions like cold and wet with some slush here and there, 5-10cm of snow is way off and even 1-2cm look highly unlikely by the look of he current beta.

Last edited by RToyo86; 03-17-2021 at 11:35 PM.
RToyo86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2021, 08:06 AM   #86
Dadhawk
1st86 Driver!
 
Dadhawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Drives: '13 FR-S (#3 of 1st 86)
Location: Powder Springs, GA
Posts: 19,798
Thanks: 38,786
Thanked 24,907 Times in 11,362 Posts
Mentioned: 181 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by RToyo86 View Post
To answer the questions earlier about the video you linked, it looked to me like a 2.5. it's impressive a car can do that, but every condition in the video looked perfect...
That was pretty much my take on it, and watching the snow video pretty much verifies it for me.

I think the difference between you and me vs. @Irace86.2.0 may be in the interpretation of "environmental detection capabilities" for L3.

I include in it, as do you I believe, weather and the various things that come with that. From what I've read I think, but do not know, that @Irace86.2.0 is considering environmental factors in terms of the objects around the car and awareness of them. Technically both are correct, but is in the more inclusive definition I believe the beta falls short of being a full on L3.
__________________

Visit my Owner's Journal where I wax philosophic on all things FR-S
Post your 86 or see others in front of a(n) (in)famous landmark.
What fits in your 86? Show us the "Junk In Your Trunk".
Dadhawk is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Dadhawk For This Useful Post:
Ohio Enthusiast (03-18-2021), RToyo86 (03-18-2021)
Old 03-18-2021, 04:50 PM   #87
Irace86.2.0
Senior Member
 
Irace86.2.0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: Q5 + BRZ + M796
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 7,883
Thanks: 5,668
Thanked 5,802 Times in 3,297 Posts
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by RToyo86 View Post
I mixed the two.

The main difference between the eye and a camera lens is what it is connected to. Our brains are far more complex and advanced than a computer. Maybe an AI system to handle information on a screen the way we do efficiently and react in a similar fashion. that doesn't exist so..

You have more faith in technology than I do.
I don't have faith that technology will always work. Especially something as complex as driving, specifically navigating. When you start adding a ton of complicated systems together that need to operate Perfectly you have less room for error, especially since things break, degrade or are defective or the programing is flawed.

When it comes to winter driving; doesn't seem like snow driving will be a thing any time soon. Systems aren't capable of adjusting properly to less than favorable road conditions like cold and wet with some slush here and there, 5-10cm of snow is way off and even 1-2cm look highly unlikely by the look of he current beta.
I work in the ER, so my faith in humans isn’t very high. I have studied psychology through my secondary education on top of my core physiology. Human vision is very poor in terms of its abilities and in terms of the processing errors it makes. Some of this people never recognize like the blind spot or holes/artifacts in their field of view, nor think about like how tunnel visioned we are, but we can look at some optical illusions to get a flavor for how our brain processes images, often poorly. We have done a number of studies that show that we are poor at multitasking or recognizing what is right in front of us. Check out the gorilla suite experiment or the mirror/painting swapping experiment.

Humans can be under the influence, distracted by their phone, angry at another car, stupid in their choices, old or disabled or lacking the physical abilities to properly drive, blinded by sunlight, scared from a spider, have a medical emergency, etc. We are very fallible.

The AutoX video I posted was clearly level 4+. That was minivan outfitted with sensors and not a car built from the ground up to have autonomy. The capacity to drive doesn’t require a Watson sized supercomputer. Operating a motorized vehicle can be done by a two year old. Learning the rules of the road is even easier for a computer.

Tesla is switching completely to a neural network from a partial neural network. For reference, the average smartphone could beat grandmaster chess players and you can buy AI chips that can perform several teraflops pretty cheap. Here is a chip that does 5 petaflops or 5000 teraflops, and it is the size of a shoebox. Just for reference, Watson in 2011 performed 80 teraflops. It isn’t a direct comparison, nor is that chip priced for a car, but I’m trying to highlight the fact that huge servers aren’t necessary for high computation no different than how the average smartphone are capable of what supercomputers did in the past.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/cleante...ing-video/amp/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/venture...rformance/amp/
__________________
My Build | K24 Turbo Swap | *K24T BRZ SOLD*
Irace86.2.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Irace86.2.0 For This Useful Post:
Ohio Enthusiast (03-26-2021)
Old 03-18-2021, 05:05 PM   #88
Irace86.2.0
Senior Member
 
Irace86.2.0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: Q5 + BRZ + M796
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 7,883
Thanks: 5,668
Thanked 5,802 Times in 3,297 Posts
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dadhawk View Post
That was pretty much my take on it, and watching the snow video pretty much verifies it for me.

I think the difference between you and me vs. @Irace86.2.0 may be in the interpretation of "environmental detection capabilities" for L3.

I include in it, as do you I believe, weather and the various things that come with that. From what I've read I think, but do not know, that @Irace86.2.0 is considering environmental factors in terms of the objects around the car and awareness of them. Technically both are correct, but is in the more inclusive definition I believe the beta falls short of being a full on L3.
Maybe this will be less terrifying.

https://medium.com/yandex-self-drivi...s-d1d0045e5df0



Waymo is doing snow. It is an obstacle that will be quickly learned by computers.

https://www.industryweek.com/technol...wintry-detroit
__________________
My Build | K24 Turbo Swap | *K24T BRZ SOLD*
Irace86.2.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Irace86.2.0 For This Useful Post:
Dadhawk (03-18-2021), Ohio Enthusiast (03-26-2021), RToyo86 (03-26-2021)
Old 03-26-2021, 03:40 PM   #89
RToyo86
Senior Member
 
RToyo86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Drives: 17 Asphalt 86
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 2,148
Thanks: 1,694
Thanked 2,168 Times in 1,114 Posts
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
It is good to see a tech that can actually perform in real looking conditions and scenarios. Wayno looks much more controlled and smooth.

An interesting article that mentioned a bunch of telsa owners talking about FSD with a similar level of concern on reddit.

https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors..._if_fsd_doesnt
RToyo86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2023, 07:41 AM   #90
Dadhawk
1st86 Driver!
 
Dadhawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Drives: '13 FR-S (#3 of 1st 86)
Location: Powder Springs, GA
Posts: 19,798
Thanks: 38,786
Thanked 24,907 Times in 11,362 Posts
Mentioned: 181 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
A little thread necromancy to post this. Tesla finally admits FSD doesn't FSD...
__________________

Visit my Owner's Journal where I wax philosophic on all things FR-S
Post your 86 or see others in front of a(n) (in)famous landmark.
What fits in your 86? Show us the "Junk In Your Trunk".
Dadhawk is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Dadhawk For This Useful Post:
ScoobsMcGee (02-17-2023), soundman98 (02-17-2023), spike021 (02-18-2023), Spuds (02-17-2023)
Old 02-17-2023, 08:19 AM   #91
ScoobsMcGee
Junior Senior with Cheese
 
ScoobsMcGee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Drives: 15 BRZ
Location: York, PA
Posts: 2,998
Thanks: 6,795
Thanked 7,013 Times in 2,337 Posts
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dadhawk View Post
A little thread necromancy to post this. Tesla finally admits FSD doesn't FSD...
After looking for a bit, Elon's tweet appears to have worked. Most people seem to be talking about the semantics of whether or not this is a "recall" and not what the problem with FSD is.
ScoobsMcGee is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ScoobsMcGee For This Useful Post:
Dadhawk (02-17-2023), MyHybridBurnsGasAndTires (02-17-2023)
Old 02-17-2023, 08:40 AM   #92
Dadhawk
1st86 Driver!
 
Dadhawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Drives: '13 FR-S (#3 of 1st 86)
Location: Powder Springs, GA
Posts: 19,798
Thanks: 38,786
Thanked 24,907 Times in 11,362 Posts
Mentioned: 181 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoobsMcGee View Post
After looking for a bit, Elon's tweet appears to have worked. Most people seem to be talking about the semantics of whether or not this is a "recall" and not what the problem with FSD is.
Well of course Musk isn't going to consider it a "recall". He probably also has said, "yea we were doing this anyway"
__________________

Visit my Owner's Journal where I wax philosophic on all things FR-S
Post your 86 or see others in front of a(n) (in)famous landmark.
What fits in your 86? Show us the "Junk In Your Trunk".
Dadhawk is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Dadhawk For This Useful Post:
Spuds (02-17-2023)
Old 02-17-2023, 08:50 AM   #93
Tcoat
Senior Member
 
Tcoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Drives: 2020 Hakone
Location: London, Ont
Posts: 69,845
Thanks: 61,656
Thanked 108,283 Times in 46,456 Posts
Mentioned: 2494 Post(s)
Tagged: 50 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dadhawk View Post
A little thread necromancy to post this. Tesla finally admits FSD doesn't FSD...
LOL In reality the things listed that the FSD is bad at are also in the top things that the human drivers do so it is sort of a wash when you consider "safety".
__________________
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar, because Racecar.
Tcoat is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Tcoat For This Useful Post:
Dadhawk (02-17-2023), Irace86.2.0 (02-18-2023), soundman98 (02-17-2023), spike021 (02-18-2023)
Old 02-17-2023, 09:10 AM   #94
ScoobsMcGee
Junior Senior with Cheese
 
ScoobsMcGee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Drives: 15 BRZ
Location: York, PA
Posts: 2,998
Thanks: 6,795
Thanked 7,013 Times in 2,337 Posts
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tcoat View Post
LOL In reality the things listed that the FSD is bad at are also in the top things that the human drivers do so it is sort of a wash when you consider "safety".
AI too humanlike. Dial it back a bit. (I am not claiming to know much of anything about autonomous driving other than direct experience with 1 car, but the thought made me chuckle)
ScoobsMcGee is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to ScoobsMcGee For This Useful Post:
Lantanafrs2 (02-21-2023), Tcoat (02-17-2023), Ultramaroon (02-17-2023)
Old 02-17-2023, 11:45 AM   #95
MyHybridBurnsGasAndTires
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Drives: what
Location: WA
Posts: 341
Thanks: 337
Thanked 278 Times in 161 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tcoat View Post
LOL In reality the things listed that the FSD is bad at are also in the top things that the human drivers do so it is sort of a wash when you consider "safety".

that definitely means they shouldn't be doing their beta testing on public roads
MyHybridBurnsGasAndTires is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2023, 01:20 PM   #96
Sasquachulator
Pavement Grey
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Drives: 2020 Toyota 86 GT, 2017 BMW X1
Location: Calgary
Posts: 3,081
Thanks: 109
Thanked 2,220 Times in 1,203 Posts
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tcoat View Post
LOL In reality the things listed that the FSD is bad at are also in the top things that the human drivers do so it is sort of a wash when you consider "safety".
They're going for the full 100% authentic bad driver experience.
Sasquachulator is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Sasquachulator For This Useful Post:
Dadhawk (02-17-2023), soundman98 (02-17-2023)
Old 02-18-2023, 09:11 PM   #97
Irace86.2.0
Senior Member
 
Irace86.2.0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: Q5 + BRZ + M796
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 7,883
Thanks: 5,668
Thanked 5,802 Times in 3,297 Posts
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dadhawk View Post
A little thread necromancy to post this. Tesla finally admits FSD doesn't FSD...
Except they didn’t admit that. FSD is still in beta according to the article and hasn’t been fully released.

This is like a Micheline 3-Star French chef admitting they aren’t that great at making sushi. Doesn’t mean they aren’t a great chef.
__________________
My Build | K24 Turbo Swap | *K24T BRZ SOLD*
Irace86.2.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2023, 09:35 PM   #98
Irace86.2.0
Senior Member
 
Irace86.2.0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: Q5 + BRZ + M796
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 7,883
Thanks: 5,668
Thanked 5,802 Times in 3,297 Posts
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyHybridBurnsGasAndTires View Post
that definitely means they shouldn't be doing their beta testing on public roads
Someone has to do it. Employees or customers. Employees would likely be better, but if the FSD Beta is safer than if the customer was to drive without it then the risk of accidents are down either way, so it should be fine. The customer still has to be engaged based on camera monitoring and driver steering wheel inputs, so the only real difference between this and Autopilot is where the car is self-driving like being engaged in a turn. Someone can’t be in the back seat or reading a book with this beta.
__________________
My Build | K24 Turbo Swap | *K24T BRZ SOLD*
Irace86.2.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"Absence makes the heart grow fonder"... 2 weeks without driving my BRZ imnotsureaboutbrz BRZ First-Gen (2012+) -- General Topics 15 08-14-2017 04:33 PM
New "driving shoes" on the cheap. NWFRS Off-Topic Lounge [WARNING: NO POLITICS] 19 07-01-2015 02:57 AM
We are still capable of "humanity" themadscientist Off-Topic Lounge [WARNING: NO POLITICS] 4 05-19-2015 02:41 AM
Driving "feel" fduboss302 BRZ First-Gen (2012+) -- General Topics 29 04-11-2014 02:52 PM
Tesla Motors Bitch-Slaps Lying "Journalist" Deslock Other Vehicles & General Automotive Discussions 34 02-19-2013 12:15 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:41 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.