Annex Suspension coilovers?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by RayRay88

If I was a vendor I'd be very weary of someone like CSG_Mike making those assumptions, like it or not his opinion carry a lot of weight with a lot of the track/performance oriented guys here.
On the other hand if his assumptions are correct well then hats off to his keen eye and we all appreciate him calling a spade a spade.

They use Silvers, same as Feal, Fortune Auto, MCS, and many others.

The shock body is immediately recognizable to the trained eye.

Like most Taiwanese dampers, it's replicated Tein tech, except the Taiwanese companies typically focus on maximizing profit, not performance, and don't copy/retool to the latest tech often. Hence, there's still no taiwanese dampers that copies, for example, the Tein Flex A HBS tech, which is a key component to the CSG FLA.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Neat, where are their parts made?

fwiw I'm happy with my custom valved Megan's, good performance on a budget.

To be fair, origin isn't really important, as what's used, and the QC. Nobody complains that Apple products are made in china; the QC of an iphone is fantastic.

Likewise, many Taiwanese dampers are revalved/customvalved/custombuilt to differentiate themselves from the others, but at the end of the day, is still old tech.

It's like copying a 90's performance damper and improving on it, but modern innovation will trump all.

See: JRZ pistons, Multimatic spool valve, Tein HBS, etc.

[Sypher]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

They use Silvers, same as Feal, Fortune Auto, MCS, and many others.

The shock body is immediately recognizable to the trained eye.

Like most Taiwanese dampers, it's replicated Tein tech, except the Taiwanese companies typically focus on maximizing profit, not performance, and don't copy/retool to the latest tech often. Hence, there's still no taiwanese dampers that copies, for example, the Tein Flex A HBS tech, which is a key component to the CSG FLA.

i'm not seeing the similarities. i'm not trained. mind enlightening us ignorant folk?

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Sypher

i'm not seeing the similarities. i'm not trained. mind enlightening us ignorant folk?

Cartridge damper, entire damper body is threaded for interchangeable lower mounts so they can manufacture like 20 different damper bodies, screw on a mount and bolt on a simple top hat and interface with thousands of different chassis with the same core damper design. Three collars, two for the spring perch one for the height adjustment on the lower mount. Rubber dust cover is always the same as well, black corrugated, super soft and squishy, pretty common to see them collapse one way or another.

Damper control is usually single adjustable on a larger diameter shaft (non-inverted strut, shaft takes the load, too lazy to take advantage of a non-loaded damper to use a narrower shaft for larger piston working area) 24-32 clicks (sometimes 12 tho). The camber plates all look nearly identical just with different anodized colors and sized for specific chassis (pics below, this is when I started cluing into how so many coilover kits are the same parts with different colors). As mentioned before this is all almost identical to the Tein design and a few other mid to high end companies don't look radically different like Ohlins (but they're typically inverted struts).

As Mike said previously the magic is what's inside, the quality control is key, at <$999 they probably got slapped together on an assembly line where they're told to work as fast as possible. Mistakes happen, shimstacks get flipped, torque is inconsistent, lower quality oil and seals degrade more quickly, etc. Ideally paying the higher price gets you a technician who's priority is to nail a damping profile that's been tested and proven with some R&D work relevant to you as a customer, hitting a decently tight tolerance and higher quality bits with tighter tolerances that'll be consistent for tens of thousands of miles or thousands of hours. The damper then gets checked on a dyno and if it's not right it gets disassembled and re-assembled until it is. Dampers are sensitive, a few thousandths of an inch difference between one and another could be noticeable on course and the car turns better left than it does right. A bit of uncleaned grit in the nooks and crannies can mean a leak/blown damper before the next engine oil change. A bit of air in the system and the fluid cavitates over the first curb and the shock becomes a limp noodle of uncontrolled disaster.







Random for sale threads with pics
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138027
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137991
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137153
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129837


I'm not shitting on these things (I've got Megans), just hoping that potential customers realize that they're simple single adjustable monotubes that are likely valved with some compromise. If their damping and spring rate choices align with what you want then fuck yeah money well spent. Sometimes, even on the super high end dampers, they simply don't meet expectations.

[Sypher]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Cartridge damper, entire damper body is threaded for interchangeable lower mounts so they can manufacture like 20 different damper bodies, screw on a mount and bolt on a simple top hat and interface with thousands of different chassis with the same core damper design. Three collars, two for the spring perch one for the height adjustment on the lower mount. Rubber dust cover is always the same as well, black corrugated, super soft and squishy, pretty common to see them collapse one way or another. That doesn't instantly mean the shock bodies are made by the same manufacture. Those are just smart design choices that most coilover companies utilize for streamlining production and reducing costs. Also there are limits to design options for a MacPherson strut coilover.

Damper control is usually single adjustable on a larger diameter shaft (non-inverted strut, shaft takes the load, too lazy to take advantage of a non-loaded damper to use a narrower shaft for larger piston working area) 24-32 clicks (sometimes 12 tho). I'm guessing it's not lazyness that drives the use of "non-inverted" shocks. I'd be willing to bet its cost related. The camber plates all look nearly identical just with different anodized colors and sized for specific chassis (pics below, this is when I started cluing into how so many coilover kits are the same parts with different colors) all of the top hats you posted are different besides the gold and silver pictures in the body of the post. But i'm not really concerned with top hats as the shock body is the main topic of discussion.. As mentioned before this is all almost identical to the Tein design and a few other mid to high end companies don't look radically different like Ohlins (but they're typically inverted struts). I question if Tein doesn't look like another companies design. MacPherson strut coilovers dont have too many package options. basically standard and inverted.

As Mike said previously the magic is what's inside, the quality control is key, at <$999 they probably got slapped together on an assembly line where they're told to work as fast as possible. Mistakes happen, shimstacks get flipped, torque is inconsistent, lower quality oil and seals degrade more quickly, etc. Ideally paying the higher price gets you a technician who's priority is to nail a damping profile that's been tested and proven with some R&D work relevant to you as a customer, hitting a decently tight tolerance and higher quality bits with tighter tolerances that'll be consistent for tens of thousands of miles or thousands of hours. The damper then gets checked on a dyno and if it's not right it gets disassembled and re-assembled until it is. Dampers are sensitive, a few thousandths of an inch difference between one and another could be noticeable on course and the car turns better left than it does right. A bit of uncleaned grit in the nooks and crannies can mean a leak/blown damper before the next engine oil change. A bit of air in the system and the fluid cavitates over the first curb and the shock becomes a limp noodle of uncontrolled disaster. Quality makes sense and I already understand how the internals are what matters but my question was regarding how does Mike know these (Annex coilovers) are the same bodies as Feal, FA, MCS and many others (assuming the listed companies do in fact use the same bodies)







Random for sale threads with pics
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138027
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137991
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137153
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129837


I'm not shitting on these things (I've got Megans), just hoping that potential customers realize that they're simple single adjustable monotubes that are likely valved with some compromise. If their damping and spring rate choices align with what you want then fuck yeah money well spent. Sometimes, even on the super high end dampers, they simply don't meet expectations.

see above notes in RED

[Troll_86]

timurrrr I don’t recall meeting you at any of the 2019 86 DC events but if you’re planning on driving at February’s Thunderhill opener, hit me up for a ride along. I am one of the 3 test drivers for the Annex ClubSpec Pros and my car is a 2017 BRZ PP. The suspension has turned out amazing and I’ve had the opportunity to test extensively at Chuckwalla, Buttonwillow and Thunderhill East and West giving me ample opportunity to put the system through it’s paces on track throughout development. If laptime is important I can report that at the last 86 DC event of 19, I ran in the street class with the Annex suspension and basically stock power with SX2 tires, we set the class record for the Cyclone configuration while we were still testing and I assure you there was more time to be had if we pushed it. if I am associating you with the right IG account didn’t you recently install Tein suspension in your car? Are you back in the market? Anyway I hope you make it to Thill and looking forward to showing you the setup.

[strat61caster]

@Sypher there are a few dozen factories in the world making dampers, maybe a dozen or so making adjustable coilovers for road going cars are budget prices. I don't know what to tell you other than keep looking at them and you'll start to spot the similarities.

[Racecomp Engineering]

It's always interesting to see the reactions from different types of people whenever a new coilover comes out from a brand new company.

Skepticism is good and healthy. Sometimes new stuff is obviously generic crap in a different shiny color. But we've also driven very nice looking and very expensive coilovers from actually very good companies that weren't all that great.

You can have tight tolerances, quality shock oil, really advanced pistons, and just totally crap up the valving or not have enough travel for crummy spring rates.

What's outside and where things come from does tell a story, but even knowing who makes the guts, there are still things that you're not going to be able to evaluate without driving them or testing them. I have some level of trust in certain companies but also know what certain companies tend to miss (in some cases that's fixable/tunable).

Digressive valving doesn't automatically mean good valving. I've mentioned it before, but if your dampers are only actually digressive when set to full stiff with an astronomical and unusable amount of low speed damping...well what's the point? That's just one example that happens frequently.

As mentioned, many/most dampers are at least somewhat digressive...but that doesn't mean they use digressive pistons. Does it matter? It depends! Does a huge range of adjustment matter? Sometimes! Do you need inverted monotube struts? Maybe, maybe not!

Anyway, I have no first hand experience with Annex Suspension and I've been asked about them exactly once. I'll say what I said in a PM which is that they look like they follow a certain method for putting together coilovers (which isn't necessarily a deal breaker) and that it at least looks like they know what they're doing. I still have a lot of questions. I'd like to see a shock dyno or drive them and know how much travel they have for our chassis. They could be nice. That's all I got!

- Andrew

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

It's always interesting to see the reactions from different types of people whenever a new coilover comes out from a brand new company.

Skepticism is good and healthy. Sometimes new stuff is obviously generic crap in a different shiny color. But we've also driven very nice looking and very expensive coilovers from actually very good companies that weren't all that great.

You can have tight tolerances, quality shock oil, really advanced pistons, and just totally crap up the valving or not have enough travel for crummy spring rates.

What's outside and where things come from does tell a story, but even knowing who makes the guts, there are still things that you're not going to be able to evaluate without driving them or testing them. I have some level of trust in certain companies but also know what certain companies tend to miss (in some cases that's fixable/tunable).

Digressive valving doesn't automatically mean good valving. I've mentioned it before, but if your dampers are only actually digressive when set to full stiff with an astronomical and unusable amount of low speed damping...well what's the point? That's just one example that happens frequently.

As mentioned, many/most dampers are at least somewhat digressive...but that doesn't mean they use digressive pistons. Does it matter? It depends! Does a huge range of adjustment matter? Sometimes! Do you need inverted monotube struts? Maybe, maybe not!

Anyway, I have no first hand experience with Annex Suspension and I've been asked about them exactly once. I'll say what I said in a PM which is that they look like they follow a certain method for putting together coilovers (which isn't necessarily a deal breaker) and that it at least looks like they know what they're doing. I still have a lot of questions. I'd like to see a shock dyno or drive them and know how much travel they have for our chassis. They could be nice. That's all I got!

- Andrew

I've personally had the chance to experience a few of these well know suspensions that retails above $3K, digressive valving, fancy pistons and all and they were not all very good. Conversely I've tried some very well tuned set using some very similar if not same components as these lower priced products that put those high end dampers to shame at half the price.

There is a difference and benefits between using a digressive piston vs a standard linear piston to achieve a digressive profile for obviously reasons. I'm not on the forum trying to pretend to know everything. Although I've done some research on the subject and have some experience with different brands of coils.

It's obvious, because of how the internals of a shock works, just because you stuff a digressive piston in a shock it doe not automatically make it perform the way you want or the way it should. Just like fancy anodizing and knobs and CNC machined hardware don't mean squat if the performance is not up to par. Of course you can have one shock producing 50 lbs of compression damping and the right shock producing 100lbs of compression damping, but they use digressive pistons. Does this make them good? Of course not.

It's one thing having a healthy skepticism, it another trashing things based on assumptions. Haters gonna hate and trolls gonna troll.

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by solidONE

I'm personally had the chance to experience a few of these well know suspensions that retails above $3K, digressive valving, fancy pistons and all and they were not very good.

Yup. When they're done right...the fancy stuff can be REALLY good. I vividly remember some of my "wow" rides/drives in dampers that get all the details right and opened my eyes to a different world of shock tuning. But those are not common.

Originally Posted by solidONE

There is a difference and benefits between using a digressive piston vs a standard linear piston to achieve a digressive profile for obviously reasons.

Yup. I started writing a bit about that and then took it out because it was turning into a very very long post. Maybe another day.

Originally Posted by solidONE

It's one thing having a healthy skepticism, it another trashing things based on assumptions. Haters gonna hate and trolls gonna troll.

Yup. That healthy skepticism should extend to the trashing you see and the hype, no matter who's doing it or the brand.

- Andrew

[sw20kosh]

I had been given the opportunity to drive cars installed with the Annex Club Spec Pro 9k/9k prototype coilovers at Laguna Seca, Buttonwillow and Chuckwalla.

I can only speak to the performance and feel of these coilovers compared to other coilovers which I have driven on (CSG Tein SRC and CSG Tein Flex A). The Annex prototypes performed great and made the car easy to drive fast at the limit with confidence. They felt much more stable and responsive vs the CSG FLA. They felt more compliant and absorbed large berm hits better vs the CSG Tein SRC but not quite as responsive in turn in. Several NA 86 track records have been set on these coilovers by a fellow competitor so they put down the lap times just fine. Joe McGuigan is his name and his records utilizing these coilovers can be seen here: https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132998

In 2019 Annex attended many of our track days including 86 Drive Challenge and 86Cup events to fine tune the prototype and get driver feedback. They are a small local company with great passion which actually makes working with them quite enjoyable.

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

Yup. When they're done right...the fancy stuff can be REALLY good. I vividly remember some of my "wow" rides/drives in dampers that get all the details right and opened my eyes to a different world of shock tuning. But those are not common.



Yup. I started writing a bit about that and then took it out because it was turning into a very very long post. Maybe another day.



Yup. That healthy skepticism should extend to the trashing you see and the hype, no matter who's doing it or the brand.

- Andrew

At the end of the day, what good are any of the fancy features and addition of more valves, ports and knobs if you cant get it to work the way you want? Its just more complication, cost for parts and effort to get just right. A "basic" single adjustable bleed with your standard or slightly facier pistons with preload built in with good tolerances has the potential to be good if not impressive if put together right.

Kinda of like an engine in that sense. The performance and durability has just as much to do with the dude taking measurements and putting it together as it does the parts being used. The more OCD the tech is the better! lol

Sounds like some pretty good results they're getting already. Hopefully they go into more detail about the hardware they're using. Though I wouldnt mind hearing what you have to say about the valving.

[timurrrr]

Thanks all for the discussion!

Originally Posted by Troll_86

timurrrr I don’t recall meeting you at any of the 2019 86 DC events but if you’re planning on driving at February’s Thunderhill opener, hit me up for a ride along. [...] if I am associating you with the right IG account didn’t you recently install Tein suspension in your car? Are you back in the market? Anyway I hope you make it to Thill and looking forward to showing you the setup.

Yup, haven't been to any 86DC events in 2019, but hope to show up to a few in 2020.

Yes, I recently installed CSG Tein Flex A. I'm not in the market for upgrades right now, but some of my friends are / might be.

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by timurrrr

Thanks all for the discussion!



Yup, haven't been to any 86DC events in 2019, but hope to show up to a few in 2020.

Yes, I recently installed CSG Tein Flex A. I'm not in the market for upgrades right now, but some of my friends are / might be.

What made you pick the twin tube Tein Flex A over the Annex monotube? Just couldnt wait?

I was checking out Annex's site, which is nicely done, and they do say all the right things. Component QC (shims and body for straightness), body and shaft length selection to maximize stroke (no actual specs tho), the default 7k/7k combo. Aggressive-ish road and track combo, and of course the R&D with 86 drivers.

Now I'm seriously curious about these. Nice to have good options out there available. Now its just figuring out if its 'good.' And if they are, how good? How much is the penalty in the level of street comfort with the 7k/7k, if any?