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01-31-2020, 12:14 AM | #15 | |
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The shock body is immediately recognizable to the trained eye. Like most Taiwanese dampers, it's replicated Tein tech, except the Taiwanese companies typically focus on maximizing profit, not performance, and don't copy/retool to the latest tech often. Hence, there's still no taiwanese dampers that copies, for example, the Tein Flex A HBS tech, which is a key component to the CSG FLA. |
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01-31-2020, 12:18 AM | #16 | |
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Likewise, many Taiwanese dampers are revalved/customvalved/custombuilt to differentiate themselves from the others, but at the end of the day, is still old tech. It's like copying a 90's performance damper and improving on it, but modern innovation will trump all. See: JRZ pistons, Multimatic spool valve, Tein HBS, etc. |
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01-31-2020, 01:00 AM | #17 | |
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01-31-2020, 01:42 AM | #18 | |
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Damper control is usually single adjustable on a larger diameter shaft (non-inverted strut, shaft takes the load, too lazy to take advantage of a non-loaded damper to use a narrower shaft for larger piston working area) 24-32 clicks (sometimes 12 tho). The camber plates all look nearly identical just with different anodized colors and sized for specific chassis (pics below, this is when I started cluing into how so many coilover kits are the same parts with different colors). As mentioned before this is all almost identical to the Tein design and a few other mid to high end companies don't look radically different like Ohlins (but they're typically inverted struts). As Mike said previously the magic is what's inside, the quality control is key, at <$999 they probably got slapped together on an assembly line where they're told to work as fast as possible. Mistakes happen, shimstacks get flipped, torque is inconsistent, lower quality oil and seals degrade more quickly, etc. Ideally paying the higher price gets you a technician who's priority is to nail a damping profile that's been tested and proven with some R&D work relevant to you as a customer, hitting a decently tight tolerance and higher quality bits with tighter tolerances that'll be consistent for tens of thousands of miles or thousands of hours. The damper then gets checked on a dyno and if it's not right it gets disassembled and re-assembled until it is. Dampers are sensitive, a few thousandths of an inch difference between one and another could be noticeable on course and the car turns better left than it does right. A bit of uncleaned grit in the nooks and crannies can mean a leak/blown damper before the next engine oil change. A bit of air in the system and the fluid cavitates over the first curb and the shock becomes a limp noodle of uncontrolled disaster. Random for sale threads with pics http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138027 http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137991 http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137153 http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129837 I'm not shitting on these things (I've got Megans), just hoping that potential customers realize that they're simple single adjustable monotubes that are likely valved with some compromise. If their damping and spring rate choices align with what you want then fuck yeah money well spent. Sometimes, even on the super high end dampers, they simply don't meet expectations. |
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01-31-2020, 03:03 AM | #19 | |
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01-31-2020, 11:35 AM | #20 |
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timurrrr I don’t recall meeting you at any of the 2019 86 DC events but if you’re planning on driving at February’s Thunderhill opener, hit me up for a ride along. I am one of the 3 test drivers for the Annex ClubSpec Pros and my car is a 2017 BRZ PP. The suspension has turned out amazing and I’ve had the opportunity to test extensively at Chuckwalla, Buttonwillow and Thunderhill East and West giving me ample opportunity to put the system through it’s paces on track throughout development. If laptime is important I can report that at the last 86 DC event of 19, I ran in the street class with the Annex suspension and basically stock power with SX2 tires, we set the class record for the Cyclone configuration while we were still testing and I assure you there was more time to be had if we pushed it. if I am associating you with the right IG account didn’t you recently install Tein suspension in your car? Are you back in the market? Anyway I hope you make it to Thill and looking forward to showing you the setup.
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01-31-2020, 11:42 AM | #21 |
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@Sypher there are a few dozen factories in the world making dampers, maybe a dozen or so making adjustable coilovers for road going cars are budget prices. I don't know what to tell you other than keep looking at them and you'll start to spot the similarities.
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01-31-2020, 01:48 PM | #22 |
It's always interesting to see the reactions from different types of people whenever a new coilover comes out from a brand new company.
Skepticism is good and healthy. Sometimes new stuff is obviously generic crap in a different shiny color. But we've also driven very nice looking and very expensive coilovers from actually very good companies that weren't all that great. You can have tight tolerances, quality shock oil, really advanced pistons, and just totally crap up the valving or not have enough travel for crummy spring rates. What's outside and where things come from does tell a story, but even knowing who makes the guts, there are still things that you're not going to be able to evaluate without driving them or testing them. I have some level of trust in certain companies but also know what certain companies tend to miss (in some cases that's fixable/tunable). Digressive valving doesn't automatically mean good valving. I've mentioned it before, but if your dampers are only actually digressive when set to full stiff with an astronomical and unusable amount of low speed damping...well what's the point? That's just one example that happens frequently. As mentioned, many/most dampers are at least somewhat digressive...but that doesn't mean they use digressive pistons. Does it matter? It depends! Does a huge range of adjustment matter? Sometimes! Do you need inverted monotube struts? Maybe, maybe not! Anyway, I have no first hand experience with Annex Suspension and I've been asked about them exactly once. I'll say what I said in a PM which is that they look like they follow a certain method for putting together coilovers (which isn't necessarily a deal breaker) and that it at least looks like they know what they're doing. I still have a lot of questions. I'd like to see a shock dyno or drive them and know how much travel they have for our chassis. They could be nice. That's all I got! - Andrew |
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01-31-2020, 03:52 PM | #23 | |
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There is a difference and benefits between using a digressive piston vs a standard linear piston to achieve a digressive profile for obviously reasons. I'm not on the forum trying to pretend to know everything. Although I've done some research on the subject and have some experience with different brands of coils. It's obvious, because of how the internals of a shock works, just because you stuff a digressive piston in a shock it doe not automatically make it perform the way you want or the way it should. Just like fancy anodizing and knobs and CNC machined hardware don't mean squat if the performance is not up to par. Of course you can have one shock producing 50 lbs of compression damping and the right shock producing 100lbs of compression damping, but they use digressive pistons. Does this make them good? Of course not. It's one thing having a healthy skepticism, it another trashing things based on assumptions. Haters gonna hate and trolls gonna troll.
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cowardice is the mother of cruelty. Last edited by solidONE; 01-31-2020 at 04:09 PM. |
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The Following User Says Thank You to solidONE For This Useful Post: | Sypher (01-31-2020) |
01-31-2020, 04:09 PM | #24 | |||
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- Andrew |
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01-31-2020, 04:12 PM | #25 |
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I had been given the opportunity to drive cars installed with the Annex Club Spec Pro 9k/9k prototype coilovers at Laguna Seca, Buttonwillow and Chuckwalla.
I can only speak to the performance and feel of these coilovers compared to other coilovers which I have driven on (CSG Tein SRC and CSG Tein Flex A). The Annex prototypes performed great and made the car easy to drive fast at the limit with confidence. They felt much more stable and responsive vs the CSG FLA. They felt more compliant and absorbed large berm hits better vs the CSG Tein SRC but not quite as responsive in turn in. Several NA 86 track records have been set on these coilovers by a fellow competitor so they put down the lap times just fine. Joe McGuigan is his name and his records utilizing these coilovers can be seen here: https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132998 In 2019 Annex attended many of our track days including 86 Drive Challenge and 86Cup events to fine tune the prototype and get driver feedback. They are a small local company with great passion which actually makes working with them quite enjoyable.
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02-01-2020, 09:44 PM | #26 | |
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Kinda of like an engine in that sense. The performance and durability has just as much to do with the dude taking measurements and putting it together as it does the parts being used. The more OCD the tech is the better! lol Sounds like some pretty good results they're getting already. Hopefully they go into more detail about the hardware they're using. Though I wouldnt mind hearing what you have to say about the valving.
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02-07-2020, 03:54 AM | #27 | |
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Thanks all for the discussion!
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Yes, I recently installed CSG Tein Flex A. I'm not in the market for upgrades right now, but some of my friends are / might be. |
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The Following User Says Thank You to timurrrr For This Useful Post: | why? (02-07-2020) |
02-08-2020, 07:46 PM | #28 | |
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I was checking out Annex's site, which is nicely done, and they do say all the right things. Component QC (shims and body for straightness), body and shaft length selection to maximize stroke (no actual specs tho), the default 7k/7k combo. Aggressive-ish road and track combo, and of course the R&D with 86 drivers. Now I'm seriously curious about these. Nice to have good options out there available. Now its just figuring out if its 'good.' And if they are, how good? How much is the penalty in the level of street comfort with the 7k/7k, if any?
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