BBK and why you do not need them....yet...

[engee]

Disclaimer:
This post is assuming:
1. the same stock HP levels for the BRZ/FR-S
2. average DD that will never see the track/race or canyon runs. I AM NOT FACTORING BRAKE FADE OR HEAT ISSUES AS A NORMAL DD WILL NOT ENCOUNTER THESE SITUATIONS.
3. Daily DRIVING CONDITIONS!!!! (just wanted to reiterate)

ALSO PLEASE READ TO ENTIRETY BEFORE MAKING UNINTELLIGENT RESPONSES

The car has yet to come out and there have been numerous threads regarding TRD BBK, STI brembos, WRX 4 pot-2pot setup. The point that I am trying to make is that the car as it is now does not need more braking yet. Even if you upgraded the power by the modest 50 hp that people are searching for, you still would not need bigger brakes. Here’s why:

Many people assume that bigger brakes = better. This is not the case. Before I get flamed by the almighty internet gods, please hear me out.

Let’s take two exact similar cars and change only a one aspect about the cars: brakes.

CAR A: 173 whp, stock brakes

CAR B: 173 whp, STI Brembos, stainless steel brake lines, ATE super blue brake fluid.

Take a guess as to which car will stop quicker?





Answer: BOTH CARS WILL TRAVEL THE SAME DISTANCE BEFORE COMING TO A COMPLETE STANDSTILL

Now some of you are probably saying: “Why is that? What stops cars? “, “What the hell are you smoking?”, etc.

My question to you would be “What is the ultimate force that determines what point the traveling vehicle will no longer be traveling?”

Answer: Friction. Not the friction between the pads and the rotors, but the friction between the tires and the road. Tires are so crucial to almost all different aspects of a car from cornering to accelerating to stopping. A car can only stop as quickly as the tires will let it until the wheels are locked up by either OEM stock brakes or Brembos. If anything, it's possible the STI brembos or other BBK's would actually have a longer stopping distance due to brake bias and also the increased weight that comes with BBK's.

In another post someone said “I'm sure STI engineers would put stuff that "doesn't work" on their cars.....”. The reason why companies put Brembos or other big brakes is purely for YOU, the customer. If manufacturer A puts them on their car and manufacturer B doesn’t, people would be like “What the hell? Why doesn’t my car have them? I’m gonna go with manufacturer A instead”, “Why does my $$$$$$ car not have big brakes but that $ car have them!!!”. At the end of the day, it’s marketing and perception.

To continue on, some may argue that they have sat in car X with a ton of money thrown into the brakes and that it's the best stopping car in the world. While upgraded brake calipers offer a better initial bite, they will not decrease the distance needed to stop the car. Stainless steel lines also offer better brake feel and more consistency, but once again they will not decrease the distance traveled.

Lasly, it is your money and you can do what you want with it. However, I am trying to educate the masses about the fundamentals behind brakes. Once again this is touching on relatively fundamental concept behind braking and stopping power (not touching topics such as heating issues, fade, etc). Even for the cars that will see autocrosses like mine will not encounter heating issues or fade at an event. If you truly want to stop quicker, invest in TIRES TIRES TIRES!!! That is all.

Useful Articles:
http://www.modified.com/roadtests/07...t/viewall.html

[Saibot]

static friction has more force than dynamic friction.

You do NOT want to be locking up your wheels. having traction at edge of sliding your wheels is the best way to stop.

[Dave-ROR]

While I agree that people here generally will NOT need a BBK, I would argue that it's possible the STI brembos would actually have a longer stopping distance due to brake bias and the fact that most people who want STI brembos want them for looks and therefore won't address those issues.

I'm really not sure we needed ANOTHER thread for this either.. but.. :shrug:

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

While I agree that people here generally will NOT need a BBK, I would argue that it's possible the STI brembos would actually have a longer stopping distance due to brake bias and the fact that most people who want STI brembos want them for looks and therefore won't address those issues.

I'm really not sure we needed ANOTHER thread for this either.. but.. :shrug:

I came here to same this. Also don't forget that STI rotors and calipers are HEAVY. That increased rotational mass (and thus, inertia) will not make you stop sooner.

[eikond]

The STI Brembos have more surface area and will allow for more friction which would simply allow you to lock up the tires faster before the ABS kicks in. On a track (per your disclaimer) the extra size and cooling capacity would prevent as much brake fade.

The stainless lines help with pedal feel so that you can modulate your braking better.. they won't help you reduce your stopping distance.. but could help your lap time ever so slightly.

The Super Blue fluid is more resistant to boiling after heavy braking sessions and will prevent brake failure.


The OP is right about the tires having a bigger impact than the brake components in a one-off test of 100-0 brake distances. But, that doesn't mean they are worthless upgrades for people depending on their usage of the vehicle.

Personally.. some upgraded pads, fluid and stainless lines and I'll be all set.

[vivix]

Heres a good read:
http://www.modified.com/roadtests/07...t/viewall.html

[SpeedR]

Of course you don’t need a BBK for DD no one needs a BBK for DD in any modern car stock car.
A BBK is for brake fade which happens on a track after repeated hard use.
BBKs rarely make signal cold stops faster and often make them worse.

Maybe I am misreading what you are trying to say, but it sounds like you don’t have the slightest idea what you’re talking about.

[engee]

edited to include points on the BBK's possibly having longer braking distances and tire lock issue and the article.

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

I'm really not sure we needed ANOTHER thread for this either.. but.. :shrug:

I just wanted to something in one place so people could actually get the correct information in one area. Hopefully people can make some educated decisions from this.

Originally Posted by eikond

The STI Brembos have more surface area and will allow for more friction which would simply allow you to lock up the tires faster before the ABS kicks in. On a track (per your disclaimer) the extra size and cooling capacity would prevent as much brake fade.

The stainless lines help with pedal feel so that you can modulate your braking better.. they won't help you reduce your stopping distance.. but could help your lap time ever so slightly.

The Super Blue fluid is more resistant to boiling after heavy braking sessions and will prevent brake failure.


The OP is right about the tires having a bigger impact than the brake components in a one-off test of 100-0 brake distances. But, that doesn't mean they are worthless upgrades for people depending on their usage of the vehicle.

Personally.. some upgraded pads, fluid and stainless lines and I'll be all set.

Completely agreed with you on all points. I am certain though that many of these cars will probably never see a track that would need those benefits though. Even in autocross, I have never overheated the OEM brakes in my 2009 WRX to a point where they got mushy.

I guess I was trying to address the masses that are using the car as a DD.

Originally Posted by SpeedR

Of course you don’t need a BBK for DD no one needs a BBK for DD in any modern car stock car.
A BBK is for brake fade which happens on a track after repeated hard use.
BBKs rarely make signal cold stops faster and often make them worse.

Maybe I am misreading what you are trying to say, but it sounds like you don’t have the slightest idea what you’re talking about.

You clearly misread. Please read my disclaimer before making dumb comments. Thank you.

Furthermore, I will beg to differ and say there are people out there that are entertaining the thought of a BBK for their car but will be using it as a DD.

[dori.]

honestly I just intend to upgrade pads and possibly lines if the stock ones aren't stainless

[Turbowned]

So I shouldn't buy these right away?

[Calum]

Originally Posted by Turbowned

So I shouldn't buy these right away?

That is just epic. I wonder if they'll mess with the brake balance?

[zoomzoomers]

Originally Posted by Turbowned

So I shouldn't buy these right away?

This could be dangerous. If you brake too hard your car might flip over on itself.

[old greg]

Originally Posted by Saibot

static friction has more force than dynamic friction.

That's not always true. Aluminum on aluminum is a pretty good example.

[coyote]

Originally Posted by zoomzoomers

This could be dangerous. If you brake too hard your car might flip over on itself.

Don't be silly, they go on the back.