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BRZ Second-Gen (2022+) -- General Topics General topics for the second-gen BRZ


View Poll Results: How would you rate the design of the 2nd gen? 1 lowest & 5 highest
1 11 10.68%
2 10 9.71%
3 32 31.07%
4 40 38.83%
5 10 9.71%
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Old 12-06-2020, 12:50 PM   #1079
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I wonder how things would have turned out if they had brought the FR-S as a Celica and a big power version as the Celica Supra instead. I donít think we would have seen a turbo I6 in any hypothetical, though, so people would have been pissed regardless.

FWIW, I like both the first gen and the 2nd gen twins. They both have great proportions and that is half the battle of making a good looking car.


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Old 12-06-2020, 12:59 PM   #1080
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I don't think the people running Subaru and Toyota are dumb. Toyota didn't become the largest car company in the world by repeatedly making mistakes. Even though the BRZ is a niche product that didn't and won't sell in large volumes, I'm sure they'd still prefer to sell more of them than less (which would be good for all of us, because the more they sell, the greater the chances it will stay in production or maybe even see a third generation someday).

I suspect one of the things they thought about was not only appealing to current BRZ/86 owners, but how to expand the market and bring in new buyers. If all they did was try and get some current owners to change, the sales would be even lower than the first generation car because not everyone would do it. They need to expand the potential pool of buyers, and that means offering things that would attract people who didn't buy the first generation car. I'm assuming those kinds of design and other features have been incorporated into the second generation car. They're probably banking on attracting more new buyers than current owners who might be turned off by them (such as the 'new' styling direction).

@Lelandjt, I hear you about potential buyers who might be willing to spend $40-$50,000 for a higher trim version. I'm also one of those people, especially for what will almost certainly end up being my last 'sports' car (and manual transmission). I wouldn't (yet...) buy a car without a manual transmission so that rules out the Corvette; I don't want a Ger-mahn car because of the high maintenance costs and questionable reliability so that rules out the Cayman and Supra (plus the Supra is automatic only, and the Cayman is also out of my budget).

For those willing to spend a little more, I think the answer might be the new Nissan Z. Assuming we get to the other side of the pandemic alive, I'm very much looking forward to multiple long test drives of both cars (preferably back-to-back on the same day).

Though, with my less than satisfying past experiences with Nissan dealers and their slimy sales practices and 'ethics', I suspect it might be a while before it will be possible to find a Z at a reasonable price. My crystal ball predicts a lot of hype and usurious ADMs and other sleazy dealer games with the new Z for a while.
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Old 12-06-2020, 03:14 PM   #1081
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That's me, and from what I can tell so far I think I like the new car better than the old one, especially the recent photos of that black one. The headlights and hood do look a little "Cayman". The old car just looked too "Scion". It looked like what you expect a cheap little Toyota to look like. I've almost never liked wings and its little wing on an underpowered car looked silly. The new ducktail is a huge improvement. I need to see it in the flesh to tell if the design appears more cohesive than in photos but I'm pretty sure I strongly prefer it to the old one. The new engine was what I'd been waiting for to become an owner but I think I'm pleased with the styling.

My only gripe: I suspect there's a large market of people like me who would pay $40,000-50,000 for a higher trim version if it were available. The Corvette/Supra/Cayman aren't quite what we want and the cost cutting on the BRZ/86 is annoying. The dream is for an STi/TRD version with turbo, nicer everything (no steel in the suspension!), and a dual clutch replacing the auto option. That's what Toyota should have done instead of bringing the Supra back and I think it would have been a nice complement to Subaru's lineup since the WRX/STi is a very different type of car.
Just FYI, I never thought the BRZ looked expensive or exotic, just good, and exceptionally so to my eye for the price point. A well sorted one doesnít look cheap either, at least to my eye. That said, Iíve had a number of people approach me over the years asking me what it was, and making some kind of comment about how it must be expensive. Obviously these were not car enthusiasts, or theyíd have known exactly what it was, but it lends itself to the possibility that the car may look higher end to the uninitiated than it actually is.
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Old 12-06-2020, 03:37 PM   #1082
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^^ THIS ^^^

There seems to be a fair amount of confirmation bias/psychological investment from the current owners. As you say it is hardly confined to the BRZ/86 though - the Corvette forums were awash with enthusiasts that insisted the car was ruined by the departure from round tail lights...

The meaningless samples of people I know that are in to cars but do not own a twin are all quite positive on the new model. I would love to see real data.

Time will tell which model is viewed as being better - someone was mentioning in one of these threads about the saga of the Mustang design; looking back with decades of perspective the "best" design appears strongly corollated to age group or someone's first.

I remain very interested in seeing the new design in person and driving it!
I’ve said before, I hope it sells like hot cakes, and I’m glad it exists. I just think it looks bad. It’s not because I own a ‘17, it’s because I think the new car is ugly. Would never have bought the new car, or even considered it, just based on the styling. But others hopefully will and I think that’s great. Doesn’t mean I have confirmation bias/psychological investment in the old car. Just means only to ME, I think the new car looks bad, like real bad, but that’s only to MY eye. I get that. You guys who like it should get that too. This isn’t an I’m right you’re wrong, or vice versa issue.
I used to be into Camaros. I’ve owned 3 1969s, including a Z28, three 1978s, two of which were Z28s, and a 1985 IROC Z. As I got older, I got more interested in small Japanese cars that handled well, and mostly moved on to them. My point is that I thought all three initial generations of the Camaro were good looking cars. I voted with my wallet and bought a few. My first was a 1978 Z28, but for me the best looking were the ones I bought later, the ‘69s. I buy based primarily on looks, and how a car handles, not how much power a car has. A monkey can mash a gas pedal, and no matter how quick your car is, there are always quicker ones, close by and in your city or town. But if a car is set up to handle really sweetly, it’s fun as hell, even if others are faster around a track somewhere.
And before anyone gets their panties in a bunch, all of the above musings are just MY OPINION about what suits ME. Your results may vary.
Time will indeed tell which car is viewed better. That said I’ve got 10 bucks all day that says the first gen car goes down as the superior car from a styling perspective. The new car may well go down as the superior performance car, but that remains to be seen.
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Old 12-06-2020, 04:37 PM   #1083
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Originally Posted by AnalogMan View Post
But the body has gone from being pretty/borderline beautiful to an disharmonious mix of dissimilar design elements (curves mixed with Chris Bangle-like creases mixed with the biggest sills I've ever seen on a production car).
The styling of the new BRZ is definitely a bit off. The way I would summarise the evolution is like this: A lot of people bought a 1st generation BRZ because of its looks. A lot of people will buy a 2nd generation BRZ despite its looks.

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The more I think about the engine, the more I like it. I love the idea of a modestly bigger, moderately but meaningfully torquier, bigger displacement naturally aspirated engine.
I am reserving judgement until I can test drive it. How it feels and sounds to drive is more important to me than bench racing numbers. The reason I was not a fan of the 1st gen FA20D was not the numbers, but how it felt to drive.

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So many of the remaining IC cars these days seem to be moving to the ubiquitous turbo formula. It's a cheap, quick, and dirty way of getting good 'numbers'.
To be fair, if it is done right, as Porsche have done in the 911 Carrera range, a turbo engine can be made to feel almost like a NA engine. It can still rev high, make peak power up top, and have a meaty mid range. It’s all in the design and tuning.

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And the sound of a turbo... that strangled, choked sound... like an asthmatic Italian grandmother struggling up a long flight of stairs...
Well, the NA FA20D could fit that description too. Just being NA doesn’t guarantee a nice engine note. It takes specific component design and tuning to achieve a pleasing sound, and that costs money... money I am not sure Subaru and Toyota wanted to spend. The twins are no LFA after all.

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IC cars days are numbered. We're moving to a soulless transportation future of anodyne, bland electric transportation pods that will get even more dystopian with full autonomy. Those might be 'efficient' by some calculations, but they sure as hell won't be any fun. They will be appliances, nothing more.
Well, most cars (especially the ubiquitous SUVs that have taken over our roads) are already soulless appliances. I still hold out some hope that there will be affordable sports coupes available in future, even if they have to be EVs.

Fully electric sports cars will, of course, not sound like ICE ones. This will be a huge loss to the driving experience, even if they handle and accelerate better.

I have actually thought they could get around this by producing special ‘hybrid’ sports cars where the electric engines provide most or all the power to drive the car, but a small little IC engine is included (ideally mid rear engined, right behind the front seats) to power ancillaries and help recharge the batteries. Of course, the little IC engine would also be tuned to provide a pleasing engine note. Since it doesn’t need to propel the car the IC engine could be very small and thus fuel efficient. I can’t fully claim credit for this idea, I believe Mazda was toying with this idea to make a new rotary RX car feasible (i.e. the rotary engine would be a range extender and used to recharge the main batteries, as well as provide an engine to listen to for the driver).

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We should celebrate any even small joys in the waning days of IC cars and especially manual transmissions.
We should indeed.
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Old 12-06-2020, 05:00 PM   #1084
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Completely agree.
I don't like the design of the new interior as much either, the curved dash was reminiscent of a ton of old small coupes and the new one seems less cockpit looking to me. I did think the materials seemed improved from pics but after watching a few videos it seems no different there from what I can tell, and the passenger side shelf thing seems awkward and looks to cut down on actual leg room.

I enjoy both na and turbo engines so I'm interested see all aspects of what gets tried with the new fa24. To me it seems the new ones won't be as receptive to boost but money can fix anything. I didn't turbo my first brz but have considered that with my ts, I do wonder if the fa20 ends up being the more tuner friendly engine while the fa24 is more the maxed out factory option. It'll be pretty cool on e85 but that isnt really available around my area.

Edit: I came from the FD world so nothing will ever top a rotary for me, from the smoothness to sounding like a turbine, my experience was great.
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Old 12-06-2020, 05:07 PM   #1085
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Plenty of enthusiasts like the new '22 car's styling better. In the s2ki thread nobody is troubled by the new styling, and the first post calls it "better looking." I think it looks great. Not perfect, but neither is the current model.

I'm looking forward to seeing it in person, and more so to driving it

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Old 12-06-2020, 05:26 PM   #1086
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All of my car guy/gal friends think it's FUGLY.
Did you know that "fugly" is a portmanteau of "fat" and "ugly"? I ask because I haven't heard anyone describe the new car as fat, portly, bulbous, or any similar adjective. I could see that thrown at the Supra for all its round protrusions but I think you got mixed up describing the new BRZ.
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Old 12-06-2020, 05:40 PM   #1087
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For those willing to spend a little more, I think the answer might be the new Nissan Z.
Yeah, I'll have to give the new Z a serious look but I suspect it'll be too heavy and feel too heavy. I just really like the feel of light cars/bikes/motorcycles. By my standards the BRZ is even too heavy considering it's the same weight as my '98 Outback Sport and '12 Mazda 3 that were both 4 door hatchbacks. Unfortunately current safety standards seem to dictate that unless you give up all practicality 2800ish is as light as a car gets and if any attention is taken away from "lightness" a car will weigh at least 3300lbs. Isn't it bizarre these days that little cars like the Cayman and Evora are over 3000lbs and pure sports cars like the Corvette and Supra are a quarter ton more? How that was considered acceptable by the design teams is beyond me.
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Old 12-06-2020, 05:49 PM   #1088
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Did you know that "fugly" is a portmanteau of "fat" and "ugly"? I ask because I haven't heard anyone describe the new car as fat, portly, bulbous, or any similar adjective. I could see that thrown at the Supra for all its round protrusions but I think you got mixed up describing the new BRZ.
I think that's exactly how it looks, perfect description.
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Old 12-06-2020, 05:59 PM   #1089
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Plenty of enthusiasts like the new '22 car's styling better. In the s2ki thread nobody is troubled by the new styling, and the first post calls it "better looking." I think it looks great. Not perfect, but neither is the current model.

I'm looking forward to seeing it in person, and more so to driving it
See thatís absolutely crazy, and they need to get you back to the damn nuthouse before you hurt somebody.

J/k! To each his own and itís a good thing we have differing tastes. Itís great that there are people who like the way the car looks and will buy it. Thatís the only way the segment survives.
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Old 12-06-2020, 07:30 PM   #1090
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Edit: I came from the FD world so nothing will ever top a rotary for me, from the smoothness to sounding like a turbine, my experience was great.
I came from the same world. My first Wankel 'vehicle' was a 1975 Suzuki RE5 motorcycle I bought in 1977 as a new unsold leftover. Then a 1974 Mazda RX4, and more recently, a couple of RX8's. Despite all the inherent design limitations of rotary engines, I absolutely love them. I sorely miss my last RX8...
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Old 12-06-2020, 08:32 PM   #1091
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Did you know that "fugly" is a portmanteau of "fat" and "ugly"?
Heh, it is also short for 'F'ing Ugly' here in Straya. So that is also a possibility.

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I ask because I haven't heard anyone describe the new car as fat, portly, bulbous, or any similar adjective.
I've described the new nose and bonnet/hood line as 'bulbous' in some of my earlier reactions to the reveal. So now you have. Fact is the 1st gen has a flatter and lower looking nose (note, looking, I'm not claiming it is literally lower, it could be an optical effect).

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I think you got mixed up describing the new BRZ.
Styling is 100% subjective. No need and not much chance of convincing others about the styling. If you like it, great, enjoy it. Some love it, some hate it. For me it's a bit of a mixed bag. I'm just hoping the 86 will fix some of my issues with the BRZ, especially the nose area.
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Old 12-06-2020, 08:50 PM   #1092
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Isn't it bizarre these days that little cars like the Cayman and Evora are over 3000lbs and pure sports cars like the Corvette and Supra are a quarter ton more? How that was considered acceptable by the design teams is beyond me.
Light, affordable, fast. Pick two.

I'm sure the design teams do the best they can and consider their cars acceptable given the range of competing priorities and requirements they have to meet to bring a decent car to market at a competitive price.
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