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Old 09-29-2020, 11:17 PM   #43
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No idea what kinda dyno this is but they RaceChip, are based out of Europe so they talk about everything in BHP at the flywheel through conversions... Dyno @4:10 The actually graph shows 227whp... If it is underrated it ain't by much.



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Old 09-30-2020, 04:42 AM   #44
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What the 2.0 Supra has over the 86, which isn't necessarily saying these things make the Supra better or that these features should have value to you, but these are the features that Toyota uses to justify the difference in price:

Obviously there is greater quality. Parts are made to a greater finish, strength, materials, etc. Paint is nicer, thicker and more robust. Knobs and buttons are more premium. Lighting and sound is more premium. Features are more plentiful. More sound deadening. Potentially thicker glass and stuff like that which is normally found in a more premium class vehicles that give them a more solid, less squeaky and less tinny/cheap feel. For torsional stiffness or development into a unique body and chassis. Bla bla bla. The list of improvements in this department is vast, is hard to quantify or list and is something that goes all the way from the expensive clamshell hood down to the higher quality in nuts and bolts.

--The engine is better.
--50% or 100 more hp
--100% or 145 more tq
--The numbers above are likely underrated, and the ability to tune the stock B48, and its potential for cheap power gains is a lot greater than the 86.

--ZF8 transmission
--Transmission can support a lot of torque and is much faster with shifting than the auto on the 86.

--Active exhaust.
--Standard larger brakes.
--Automatic engine start/stop.
--9x10'' vs 7x7' wide alloy wheels on 255x275 Michelin Pilot SS vs 215x215 Michelin Prius tires.

--Standard auto-folding heated mirrors with integrated turn signals that also auto tilt down when in reverse.
--Standard auto-leveling LED headlights (superior performance)
--Standard automatic high beams, which turns off when oncoming cars are detected.
--Standard 8 way manual seats with 4-way lumbar and 2-way bolster adjustment.
--Standard arm rest.
--Standard real carbon fiber interior trim.
--Standard lane departure warning with steering assist.
--Standard crash warning with pedestrian detection.
--Standard hill start assist.
--Standard launch control.
--Standard directional parking lights.
--Standard knee airbags.
--8.8'' MMI
--Standard dual zone climate control.
--Standard automatic air recirculation if the vehicle detects noxious gases in the atmosphere.
--Standard rain sensing windshield with automatic wipers.
--Standard auto-dimming rearview mirror.
--Standard "coming home device" and garage door opener, which I believe can turn on lights and disable the security system or other things.

--Optional 12 speaker JBL system/sub.
--Optional touchless MMI.
--Optional Toyota Supra Connect featuring Emergency Calling, Battery Guard, Remote-Control Lock/Ventilation, Real-Time Traffic Information, Map Updates,84 Concierge Service and Toyota Supra Online.
--Optional adaptive cruise control.
--Optional blind spot warning.
--Optional rear cross-traffic alert.
--Optional parking sensors with emergency braking function.
--Optional blind spot monitoring.

I have no idea if the car has other "quarks and features". Our Q5 has a bunch of features in the MMI such as a thing to set a warning if we creep over a certain speed slowly like if we have a lead foot, and there is an oil level checker, and a warning system for oil change intervals, and there is a thing to control the settings for how hard the AC blows when initially turned on, etc. Our Audi also has more sensors built into the car, so it warned my wife when the coolant reservoir was low--stuff like that.

I probably missed stuff, but this gives people a general idea.
What's that list? An outline of the catalog features?

Having driven different BMWs in the past, I wouldn't say they are a better build. They have maintenance issues and the build quality is not as it used to be. For example, I could find in many respects my Subaru Forester a more well build car comparing to a high spec'd BMW X1 with even plastic parts falling down. A nice look and feel is one thing, but a good build quality is another thing.

Also Japanese paint doesn’t tend to be thinner (other than Mazda who use their SkyaActiv paint system). Japanese paint tends to be softer which leads to the false thinking that it is not thick enough, but it isn’t a set rule.

It is true that you will find in German cars thicker glass and stuff that give them a more solid, less squeaky and less tinny/cheap feel. Same about the torsional stiffness, but all these with the expense of weight! In fact, I am quite surprised how the torsional stiffness of 86 went up in the revision model without adding much weight, which is the correct way of doing it.
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Old 09-30-2020, 12:39 PM   #45
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I'm curious about something. You list what sound like virtues but include "Automatic engine start/stop." Really? Disabling that nuisance seems almost standard procedure on BMWs for anyone who knows that it can be disabled. (BMW veteran here.)
You are assuming poorly. I listed features that give credence to the price disparity. I pretty well clarified that the value for these things are highly subjective, which I said because I know the audience on this forum. Regardless of your opinion, Toyota will assign value to these items. Typically a start/stop system requires a larger battery and/or a more complicated, in-bell-housing starter or a larger, conventional starter.

We have it on the Q5. It is turned off except when we are stuck in traffic lines like when we were leaving the Giants game or any such situations.
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Old 09-30-2020, 01:13 PM   #46
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Sounds like a lot of things that can go wrong in the Supra. Reminds me of when I was in the market for a new sports car last year and was liking the looks of the BMW-Z4...until my BMW-owner friends talked me out of it, saying that I “don’t want to own a BMW older than 10yo unless I enjoyed chatting with my local BMW mechanics on a regular basis.”

I’m even a little leary of having automatic windows in my FRS. :-)
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Old 09-30-2020, 01:51 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by nikitopo View Post
What's that list? An outline of the catalog features?

Having driven different BMWs in the past, I wouldn't say they are a better build. They have maintenance issues and the build quality is not as it used to be. For example, I could find in many respects my Subaru Forester a more well build car comparing to a high spec'd BMW X1 with even plastic parts falling down. A nice look and feel is one thing, but a good build quality is another thing.

Also Japanese paint doesn’t tend to be thinner (other than Mazda who use their SkyaActiv paint system). Japanese paint tends to be softer which leads to the false thinking that it is not thick enough, but it isn’t a set rule.

It is true that you will find in German cars thicker glass and stuff that give them a more solid, less squeaky and less tinny/cheap feel. Same about the torsional stiffness, but all these with the expense of weight! In fact, I am quite surprised how the torsional stiffness of 86 went up in the revision model without adding much weight, which is the correct way of doing it.
Do you have a source for this?
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Old 09-30-2020, 02:01 PM   #48
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What's that list? An outline of the catalog features?

Having driven different BMWs in the past, I wouldn't say they are a better build. They have maintenance issues and the build quality is not as it used to be. For example, I could find in many respects my Subaru Forester a more well build car comparing to a high spec'd BMW X1 with even plastic parts falling down. A nice look and feel is one thing, but a good build quality is another thing.

Also Japanese paint doesn’t tend to be thinner (other than Mazda who use their SkyaActiv paint system). Japanese paint tends to be softer which leads to the false thinking that it is not thick enough, but it isn’t a set rule.

It is true that you will find in German cars thicker glass and stuff that give them a more solid, less squeaky and less tinny/cheap feel. Same about the torsional stiffness, but all these with the expense of weight! In fact, I am quite surprised how the torsional stiffness of 86 went up in the revision model without adding much weight, which is the correct way of doing it.
I went through the sales brochure, the website list of features, the comparison list and the owner’s manual.

It is well built like an Acura or Lexus is more well built than a Honda or Lexus, respectively. Reliability is a different thing. In theory, premium and luxury vehicles have more parts making more power with more weight, so their rate of failure is likely to be higher given the same standards. Sometimes this is the case, but sometimes it is not the case. Regardless, I was referring to the things that increase the cost of the parts.

The paint on my Q5 is much better and thicker than the Subaru by a long shot. The Acura NSX has a special $6k paint option, which obviously is a special vehicle, but most premium brands give more paint options and higher, premium paint options. Just having more features and more options of a model raises the base cost of vehicles before adding those options.

Most technologies trickle down from premium vehicles, which includes better metallurgy and structural integrity techniques.
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Old 09-30-2020, 02:07 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by CSG Mike View Post
Do you have a source for this?
He might be going off the assumption the new 86 would be on TNGA, which seems to be a revision of their previous architecture with increased stiffness, yet is lighter.

Quote:
The headline news is the new platform is lighter and between 30 to 65 per cent more rigid than its existing platforms with a lower centre of gravity.
https://www.motoring.com.au/toyota-r...latform-50163/
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Old 09-30-2020, 02:08 PM   #50
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I would pray that the new car is not TNGA
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Old 09-30-2020, 02:20 PM   #51
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I would pray that the new car is not TNGA
I’m an atheist.
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Old 09-30-2020, 02:34 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
It is well built like an Acura or Lexus is more well built than a Honda or Lexus, respectively. Reliability is a different thing. In theory, premium and luxury vehicles have more parts making more power with more weight, so their rate of failure is likely to be higher given the same standards. Sometimes this is the case, but sometimes it is not the case. Regardless, I was referring to the things that increase the cost of the parts.
There isn't any relationship between a BMW (sorry Supra!) and a Lexus and why reliability is another thing? As I said look and feel is one thing, but build quality is another thing. So, I wouldn't say that a German car can be rated as well build. And what about luxury vehicles that have more parts and the rate of failure tends to be higher? Why this doesn't hold for Lexus?

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Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
The paint on my Q5 is much better and thicker than the Subaru by a long shot. The Acura NSX has a special $6k paint option, which obviously is a special vehicle, but most premium brands give more paint options and higher, premium paint options. Just having more features and more options of a model raises the base cost of vehicles before adding those options.
Are we talking about standard factory paint or about a special $6k paint? It looks that you like to jump topics. Talk with a professional and he can show you how the thickness of paint can be measured.

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Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
He might be going off the assumption the new 86 would be on TNGA, which seems to be a revision of their previous architecture with increased stiffness, yet is lighter.

https://www.motoring.com.au/toyota-r...latform-50163/
I was talking about the revision +'17 86 model and not about the next generation model. The video was supposed to compare these 2 cars. Or should we jump topic again?
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Old 09-30-2020, 03:15 PM   #53
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There isn't any relationship between a BMW (sorry Supra!) and a Lexus and why reliability is another thing? As I said look and feel is one thing, but build quality is another thing. So, I wouldn't say that a German car can be rated as well build. And what about luxury vehicles that have more parts and the rate of failure tends to be higher? Why this doesn't hold for Lexus?

Are we talking about standard factory paint or about a special $6k paint? It looks that you like to jump topics. Talk with a professional and he can show you how the thickness of paint can be measured.

I was talking about the revision +'17 86 model and not about the next generation model. The video was supposed to compare these 2 cars. Or should we jump topic again?
Lexus tends to prioritize reliability and also has underpowered motors.

All of the above. There are premium paint options on premium cars, and their base paints are higher quality and thicker/more layers.

I assumed you meant the second gen. Like @CSG Mike said... source? I wasn’t aware torsional stiffness was improved on the revision, except for the engine, which in that case, it increased weight very mildly because the change was mild.
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Old 10-01-2020, 05:16 AM   #54
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Lexus tends to prioritize reliability and also has underpowered motors.

All of the above. There are premium paint options on premium cars, and their base paints are higher quality and thicker/more layers.

I assumed you meant the second gen. Like @CSG Mike said... source? I wasn’t aware torsional stiffness was improved on the revision, except for the engine, which in that case, it increased weight very mildly because the change was mild.
Is that what locals are telling you guys to sell more German cars? Things like that Lexus has underpowered motors and that premium and luxury vehicles have more parts with a tendency to have a higher failure rate? Lol.

I also liked German cars, but things were much much better a couple of decades ago. In fact all my previous cars were German but, I am not a fan of them anymore. I was also living the last 9 years in Germany, but again they didn't convince me as a customer to go back to them.

Yes the revision model is quite changed. Biggest change is not the 5hp increase the media was mentioning about. It feels more rigid, refined and upscale. Especially editions like the Hakone or similar editions in Europe. There are different reviews posted here, but I had the opportunity to see the differences lately myself.
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Old 10-01-2020, 12:57 PM   #55
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Is that what locals are telling you guys to sell more German cars? Things like that Lexus has underpowered motors and that premium and luxury vehicles have more parts with a tendency to have a higher failure rate? Lol.

I also liked German cars, but things were much much better a couple of decades ago. In fact all my previous cars were German but, I am not a fan of them anymore. I was also living the last 9 years in Germany, but again they didn't convince me as a customer to go back to them.

Yes the revision model is quite changed. Biggest change is not the 5hp increase the media was mentioning about. It feels more rigid, refined and upscale. Especially editions like the Hakone or similar editions in Europe. There are different reviews posted here, but I had the opportunity to see the differences lately myself.
Lexus does have underpowered engines, especially for their class. Check the average specific output per liter or total output. Luxury cars typically have more options and features/parts. Complexity leads to higher failure rates. Engineering lots of options can lead to higher rates of failures like adding different plays/complexity to plays to a football team. Obviously this can be overcome, but it is why high mileage luxury cars are sometimes avoided like the plague and why luxury brands are often leased, among other reasons.

Again, what’s your source for the revision? I see here you attached the revision changes. I couldn’t find anything about increasing chassis torsional stiffness. Maybe you made an error?

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Old 10-01-2020, 01:29 PM   #56
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Again, what’s your source for the revision? I see here you attached the revision changes. I couldn’t find anything about increasing chassis torsional stiffness. Maybe you made an error?

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...&postcount=302
You can check below the changes happened in the MY17 model. There are a few more rigidity changes in the MY18 and MY19 models, but they are not well documented. They were made to support the 86 GR and STI Sport domestic models. All I can say from my side after comparing a MY14 model with a MY19 model is that the difference is quite noticeable.

https://club4ag.com/some-intricacies...17-model-year/
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