Why doesnt Toyota make its own motor for the FT-86??

[Shevon]

So here a decent topic for discussion...like the topic says why wont/doesn't Toyotta use thier own motor. And what type of motor do you want to see...FI, NA, high revver, etc.
Personally i would love to see a na high rpm motor redline at least 8000rpm with both torque and hp atleast 200.

Disscuss!!

[DanZilla]

8000-9000rpm 2.5 turbo 250hp 250 tq

[zigzagz94]

Other than a rotary engine you really can't beat a boxer for low center of gravity. It's a good engine for this type of sportscar application as the handling will probably be very good thanks to the positioning of the boxer being low and as close to the center of the car as possible. Why use a traditional I-4 that wouldn't be as good?

[OldSkoolToys]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_ZZ_engine

2ZZ-GE, or they could've come out with a next gen version of the same block. I fell in love with that motor while test driving a Corolla XRS a few years back, felt it would be PERFECT for any new revival AE86 type car (fell in love with the motor mind you, not the car). It makes a perfect platform of the FT-86.

I would call it the 2ZZ-GSE (S indicating D4-S injection).

The engine will easily run at speeds of around 4,000 rpm for extended periods of time and is designed to periodically run at the 8,400 RPM redline without issue.

Toyota commissioned Yamaha to design the 2ZZ-GE and it shares several similarities with street bike engines, the most notable being the relatively high RPM design. The high-output cam profile is not activated until approximately 6,200 rpm (the exact point of engagement is different depending on the vehicle, year, and PCM involved) and will not engage until the engine is sufficiently warmed up to 60° celsius (140° fahrenheit). The Toyota PCM electronically limits RPM to about 8200 RPM

Its the perfect 4A-GE successor. The 4A-GE was also co-created by Toyota and Yamaha (yamaha designing the free-flow GE head), it has a high ass redline, can run consistently in mid-high revs without hurting the engine, I mean....It IS the new 4a-ge. Why Toyota didn't feel like doing a little work to convert the layout for RWD is beyond me. That motor is PERFECT PERFECT PERFECT for the FT86.

I should also be noted that there were supercharged versions that put out both 225hp and 240hp respectively, add in the D4-S version and you'd probably see SC versions reaching almost 260hp (roughhhhh estimate).

[White Comet]

The boxer engine is amazing. Low centre of gravity, compact, stout, and once you take off the restrictive stock piping and replace it with aftermarket ones, it sounds like nothing else in the automotive world. Pure bad-ass.

Originally Posted by Shevon

So here a decent topic for discussion...like the topic says why wont/doesn't Toyotta use thier own motor. And what type of motor do you want to see...FI, NA, high revver, etc.
Personally i would love to see a na high rpm motor redline at least 8000rpm with both torque and hp atleast 200.

Disscuss!!

A small displacement, high revving engine can't possibly have same output for torque and HP without the addition of boost. You only have to look at many different Hondas, Toyotas, and even the Mazda rotary for proof of this.

If you want 200 hp from a NA 2.0L, expect it to rev high, like 8000. Also expect the torque to be around 140-150.

[OldSkoolToys]

Originally Posted by White Comet

The boxer engine is amazing. Low centre of gravity, compact, stout, and once you take off the restrictive stock piping and replace it with aftermarket ones, it sounds like nothing else in the automotive world. Pure bad-ass.

I've never owned a boxer powered engine before, but if it follows the same rules as other motors, that wouldn't be quite as much of a HP gain as you think, in NA form.
You're probably basing that off of what you did to your WRX turbo motor, and yes, turbo motors from the factory are notorious for getting extremely restrictive exhausts. So replacing those can typically add to a great, cheap way to add 20+ HP. NA motors don't get near as much power gains from replacing small bits like those, but what you do get is a better powerflow, typically in the mid-range, but it really depends on what kind of exhaust you're putting on.

If you want 200 hp from a NA 2.0L, expect it to rev high, like 8000. Also expect the torque to be around 140-150.

Torque estimate is pretty much correct, which wouldn't bother me in the least. I'd much rather have a car that performs in the high revs than something that likes to take off from a dead stop and then feel 'lethargic' in the higher Revs.

[FT///R86]

Originally Posted by White Comet

The boxer engine is amazing. Low centre of gravity, compact, stout, and once you take off the restrictive stock piping and replace it with aftermarket ones, it sounds like nothing else in the automotive world. Pure bad-ass.


A small displacement, high revving engine can't possibly have same output for torque and HP without the addition of boost. You only have to look at many different Hondas, Toyotas, and even the Mazda rotary for proof of this.

If you want 200 hp from a NA 2.0L, expect it to rev high, like 8000. Also expect the torque to be around 140-150.

I'm hoping the boxer will rev to 8,000RPM. I think it has to in order to be 2.0L. I would have loved for Toyota to use their own engine maybe a 2.0 2ZZ or a new S engine but that is just the purist in me.

[OldSkoolToys]

Originally Posted by FT///R86

I'm hoping the boxer will rev to 8,000RPM. I think it has to in order to be 2.0L. I would have loved for Toyota to use their own engine maybe a 2.0 2ZZ or a new S engine but that is just the purist in me.

Heh, should read my post like 3 posts up. I was touting on about how perfect the 2ZZ-GE would've been for this car.

[FT///R86]

Originally Posted by OldSkoolToys

Heh, should read my post like 3 posts up. I was touting on about how perfect the 2ZZ-GE would've been for this car.

Yeah. I never understood why Toyota never put it in the MR-S. Too bad they discontunued it. Now they have the R engines. I still think people would have been upset especially with the torque numbers the 2ZZ puts out. Maybe Yamaha could have been involved in developing the engine for the FT? I've never owned a boxer engined car but I'm looking forward to it.

[Jordo!]

1. To keep costs down.

2. New? High Revving? Specific power output? You just described the 2ZZ-GE, which is a nice, but somewhat brittle and gutless motor. The stock pistons' ringlands will break as low as 250 whp and no one can seem to get over 200 whp n/a.

Unfortunately, no one knew any of that until we started breaking them/disapointing ourselves with experimental projects.

At least the limits of the EJ20 are better known...

I like my 2ZZ, but it's a high strung weak motor... trust me, there's a reason why Toyota abandoned VVTLi in favor of Dual VVTi.

A high revving engine with absolutely no grunt sucks donkey balls anywhere but a road course. For any kind of daily driving, I prefer it to not be a dangerous mission merging into traffic...

[OldSkoolToys]

Originally Posted by Jordo!

1. To keep costs down.

2. New? High Revving? Specific power output? You just described the 2ZZ-GE, which is a nice, but somewhat brittle motor, which no one can seem to get over 200 whp n/a and no one knew any of that until we started breaking them/disapointing ourselves with experimental projects.

At least the limits of the EJ20 are better known...

I like my 2ZZ, but it's a high strung weak motor... trust me, there's a reason why Toyota abandoned VVTLi in favor of Dual VVTi.

bah, not like Toyota couldn't have done some more engineering to perfect the platform. Thats why I said 'next generation' in my post. The only reason I said same block was to keep the 2ZZ designation, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have reworked the internals with better material.

You say high-strung...which I translate as 'it struggles in the high RPMs', sounds like a crank/ connecting rod issue.

All I remember when I test drove that XRS is that the engine sounded exciting, revv'd extremely high, and was actually very powerful for what it was (Corolla XRS's, hell just today's Corolla's, aren't really Corolla's imo. Fucking HEAVY).

[OldSkoolToys]

Originally Posted by Jordo!

A high revving engine with absolutely no grunt sucks donkey balls anywhere but a road course. For any kind of daily driving, I prefer it to not be a dangerous mission merging into traffic...

Careful there buddy. I'll not let any one take pot-shots at the 4A-GE and do nothing about it. The 4A-GE may not have much low-end grunt to it, but its a damn fine and fun engine to drive, ANYWHERE, not just a road course.

Infact my only complaint about DDing a 4A is the fact that on the interstate, with my exhaust, anything above 70 MPH is just flat out annoying, since I'm sitting at ~4500 RPM. Thats not even an engine issue, its the 80's gearing!

[White Comet]

Originally Posted by OldSkoolToys

I've never owned a boxer powered engine before, but if it follows the same rules as other motors, that wouldn't be quite as much of a HP gain as you think, in NA form.
You're probably basing that off of what you did to your WRX turbo motor, and yes, turbo motors from the factory are notorious for getting extremely restrictive exhausts. So replacing those can typically add to a great, cheap way to add 20+ HP. NA motors don't get near as much power gains from replacing small bits like those, but what you do get is a better powerflow, typically in the mid-range, but it really depends on what kind of exhaust you're putting on.

I think you misunderstood me. I said it sounds badass, I mentioned nothing of performance. And just in case you were wondering, that characteristic sound is due to the boxer design requiring an unequal length header and thus producing asynchronous exhaust pulsations. Download some YouTube clips of some imprezas with aftermarket downpipes/exhausts and you'll hear what I mean.

You are right, though. Power gains are always much better on factory boosted cars compared to their na counterparts.

[OldSkoolToys]

Originally Posted by White Comet

I think you misunderstood me. I said it sounds badass, I mentioned nothing of performance. And just in case you were wondering, that characteristic sound is due to the boxer design requiring an unequal length header and thus producing asynchronous exhaust pulsations. Download some YouTube clips of some imprezas with aftermarket downpipes/exhausts and you'll hear what I mean.

You are right, though. Power gains are always much better on factory boosted cars compared to their na counterparts.

haha, you're right, I did misread.

My friend has an STi with a damn good exhaust on it, and it does sound very badass.

I still prefer the screaming of my 4A-GE at 7000RPM over that though.