twins vs last gen cayman?

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by TommyW

Any time you add power there will be reliability changes compared to a completely stock motor that's a given and as power increases so does reduced reliability. For 10 K you'll have enough to do a proper FI and tune and a decent set of tires. 100 hp and the suspension and brakes (with better pads and fluid) are fine as the car in a stock state can handle the power. If you WANT better suspension and big brakes, bigger lighter wheels that's always up to you, more power or not. I don't think I mentioned using cheap parts.....

exactly

[TommyW]

Originally Posted by Hades

The only thing that makes me hesitate going FI is that 10k can easily turn into 15-20k with one failure. The engine blows, then you're building the engine since it's out (why not). You then turn up the boost since your new engine is rebuilt to handle the extra boost, so then the tranny goes due to the high torque loads. Soon you're out 20k+ and you have a loud car to DD (with likely a squealing transmission due to the reinforced gears unless you have lots of $$$).

Welcome to the dark side.

I just tell people if you need a car with more power then just buy a Mustang or something. These cars are all about the lightness and balance and steeering.
Adding FI to an 86 is like giving a thin chick a boob job. For all the cost you coulda just picked a heavier one that already had boobs.

[Mim]

I laughed a little too hard at that last comment.

My own build has been focussed around a comfortable DD ie street focussed suspension, active dampers, bracing to keep handling clean and a sprinkling of drive train mods for crisper throttle response.

Completing the build with MY17 red manifold, ACE headers, custom tune, forged 17x7.5" wheels and better tires over the next two years. This speaks to me far more in the long term reliability argument and fun factor than FI ever will.

The real question after all that though is how much more fun would the car be vs a Cayman in the harsh real world of less than perfect roads and draconian speed limit enforcement.

[r_rated]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

I can understand the perception (and possible reality) of the 981 being more refined than a GT86/BRZ, but a 987? Not a chance. Lively hydraulic power steering and a loud engine right behind your head dismiss any notion of much refinement.

Cayman S idle in neutral - 56 dBA
BRZ idle in neutral - 42 dBA

Cayman S cruising @ 70 mph - 76 dBA
BRZ cruising @ 70 mph - 73 dBA

Cayman S full throttle in 1st gear - 84 dBA
BRZ full throttle in 1st gear - 85 dBA

That's on the base exhaust system (louder sport exhaust was optional). And the Cayman doesn't have any device "piping in" engine sounds

The cayman; like the 911, do pump in engine sound. The good news is that Porsche does this mechanically through a tube from the engine bay and not some crap played through the speakers like other cars.... My 528MSport sounds like a v8 in the car.... I hate it.

[WolfpackS2k]

I'm pretty sure the 987s do not feature this. If they do I have no clue where that tube would be because haven't found one anywhere.

[switchlanez]

981 Cayman GTS (I believe 991, too) has the "Sound Symposer" tube that pipes from the engine, through the firewall, and into the cabin. A Cayman or Boxster "hack" thread came up on Google where owners figure out how to mod it into their P-cars. Part #9:

[switchlanez]

Lexus LC500 also flaunts one unashamedly visible in the engine bay:

[switchlanez]

Originally Posted by Hades

The only thing that makes me hesitate going FI is that 10k can easily turn into 15-20k with one failure. The engine blows, then you're building the engine since it's out (why not). You then turn up the boost since your new engine is rebuilt to handle the extra boost, so then the tranny goes due to the high torque loads. Soon you're out 20k+ and you have a loud car to DD (with likely a squealing transmission due to the reinforced gears unless you have lots of $$$).

If you have to wonder about it, just do it. After a certain point you're shorting yourself and the [limited] time you have with this platform. I've tightened up the chassis/steering with OEM TRD/Bilstein street-tuned (not track) parts so some comfort is sacrificed (I don't DD it anyway). A chattery lightweight flywheel and twin vortices make little race car sounds. The tiny TRD x MOMO steering wheel makes steering more intimate and STI quickshifter and TRD USA short shifter bracket make shifts extra crisp. Though the supercharger adds some weight [mostly right against the firewall], the car still feels balanced but lighter because it now has a forward agility that complements its quick lateral transitions. I love the renewed character and drama. These are the visceral feel items that make my drive in the BRZ a "special event" every time. Feels more serious yet like a ridiculous toy at the same time compared to the Caymans I drove. (I envision the A110 which I flooded this thread with to be a better manifestation of my build.) Though a Cayman aftermarket exists, I don't get the impression that it's as abundant/accessible. That's something to celebrate while we can. And if my motor blows (not likely, more on that later), I look forward to figuring out a CA smog legal swap. I believe LS or FA20DIT swaps are becoming turnkey (2JZ coming from an older model year isn't CA legal for me). Or build a 2017+ motor. As long as I'm healthy and kicking, things can only get better.

Like others posting in this thread, I stubbornly held the "purist" mindset of keeping it NA as its visionaries intended (namely Club4AG founder Moto Miwa who heavily pushed this philosophy onto his buddy, Toyota Chief Engineer Tetsuya Tada). And I did so for several years being an original owner from the first batch that shipped to the US in May 2012. But this platform is revered by Tada-san himself for being a blank canvas to suit its owner's wants. I envy people who can find bliss in keeping it NA. This is where the "purist" in me begins to fade as the "enthusiast" takes over... there are abundant OEM quality temptations (I'll point some out) that come with owning this platform and are impossible to avoid. For a time, CA smog laws kept me distanced from them... annoyed me to the point of almost moving on from this platform. But we're blessed with an aftermarket so strong that it has CA smog legal options. This would breathe new life into my BRZ.

To stay CA smog legal, besides suspension, I could only add an intake and exhaust and kept it that way several years. Eventually wanted the TRD Lightweight Flywheel/Clutch that came in the 14R60. With that clutch being a stage 3 metal facing 3-puck, TRD subtly encourages you to add power. When Tom's (a factory supported racing team and tuner of Toyota) released a supercharger and TRD built some track-only TVS1320 superchargers, the Dark Side teased me. When Edelbrock released their TVS1320 (took their time being 3 years after other FA20 FI kits hit the market AND it was CA smog legal?!), that was game over NA for me. Edelbrock supercharges V6 Toyota powered Lotuses from the factory and TRD editions of Toyotas in Australia. Edelbrock shipped it with a massive heat exchanger from one of their V8 superchargers to mitigate the FA20s notorious heat issue. Would've been sufficient for my style of driving but I added the Forester XT OEM oil filter cooler, OEM FA20DIT PCV valve, and TRD clutch (mentioned earlier). My friend's stock NA motor from MY2015 had his cam plates leak after Subaru improved the sealing from the factory. My car is from the first batch in 2012 with boosted motor for over a couple years. My cam plate is still bone dry. The difference is likely in driving habits.

I believe there are common failures that happen on the FA20 regardless of aspiration (stock, NA tuned, or FI) and a laundry list of track proven items to mitigate them. I haven't memorized/done all (may be overkill for my driving style) but such items may include an oil cooler, AOS/catch can, and cam plate. Could be argued that a stage 1 FI build with these items should outlast a stock or NA build without. There are owners on the FR-S/BRZ Owners facebook page (they're also on the original Enthusiast page but the Owners group was created to filter out non-owner trolls) who have been tracking their FI builds on original internals with great success. I also have friends who've blown up their NA motors during the growing pain years of tuning. The FA20 being a ticking time bomb might be the echo of a loud minority who always like to wring out their engine. Others speak of the FA20 as a robust new piece of tech.

@CounterSpace Garage posted this on their fb page today:
"Checking the power rating of this high mileage 4 year old tracked JRSC C30-94 kit on the Delicious Tuning dyno. This JRSC kit still has the original Rotrex unit and stock FA20 engine."

[switchlanez]

Got an email notification of a new post from @nikitopo but noticed the post had vanished while I typed a response. I'll address some things without directly quoting what was said.
-------------------------

Tada-san being buddies with Moto is probably FI-averse. My job puts me under more scrutiny than others to obey the law so NA tune wasn't an option for me. The CA-legal Edelbrock was a godsend. Again, I envy those who have it as a legal option and applaud those who stick to that mantra and creatively cut weight like the Griffon 86.

I notice Toyota also modifies for the sake of modifying (tack-on air stabilizer fins, Griffon 86 parts, TRD supercharger and GRMN 86 intake runners shaped like Edelbrock's) this car moreso than the ZZT Celica, JZA Supra, and SW and ZZW MR2s (dad had the Supra, I've had the rest).

Those GRMN intake runners add weight in the same area as Edelbrock. Edelbrock adds weight in other areas as well but omits 30 lbs of stock parts for a net 60 added lbs. I cut 5-7 lbs. per corner with TWS Forged wheels, Brembo BBK is lighter than stock, and deleted my spare tire. Almost a wash. I've swapped with friends' stock or lightly modified NA 86es. They had no complaints on balance. Their CoG (or should I say roll centers) felt higher than mine probably because my TRD springs brings it further down than the Edelbrock raises it. I don't think the change in dynamics is as dramatic as some make it out to be. Net effect is positive and doesn't ruin the car. Significant changes in dynamics happen when people change tires, suspension, or add 60 lbs of OEM bracing/chassis stiffening.

Edelbrock under-reported their gains. Owners and the PowerNation TV FR-S are seeing more torque (I forget the figure) and ~270whp. Like others, I've complained about the parasitic loss. But that may be more to do with not fixing the dead pedal on ECU reset (dealt with same problem when I had a TRD intake). I say this because very recently I inadvertently fixed this by disconnecting my battery to make space to install my FA20DIT PCV Valve. Unless changing that valve suddenly boosted response, either way, my gripe about parasitic loss is absolved. Throttle feels like an on/off switch now. Couple that with the extremely narrow friction zone of my TRD clutch, my mind is more focused on not spinning the tires than parasitic loss. I don't mean for this to become an Edelbrock discussion so I'll defer discussion to those threads where these items have been covered.

Pics of various intake runners for interest of comparison. Blue coupled one is SARD which I consider to be on the level of Tom's as a manufacturer.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by switchlanez

Got an email notification of a new post from @nikitopo but noticed the post had vanished while I typed a response. I'll address some things without directly quoting what was said...

Yes I made a posting, but then I was thinking that we were getting too much off topic. Thanks for the update. Interesting information.

[Hades]

@switchlanez cool story bro

I think your post highlights my point, though - you say if the engine blows, go engine swap. But if you don't start with boost in the first place you aren't at a loss of $5-10k for the initial F/I parts.

Don't get me wrong, I love this platform and I'm sure it is amazing with boost. I'd love to own a boosted twin. But with all the engine & trans failures I'm leaning towards the cautious side.

[switchlanez]

Originally Posted by Hades

@switchlanez cool story bro

I think your post highlights my point, though - you say if the engine blows, go engine swap. But if you don't start with boost in the first place you aren't at a loss of $5-10k for the initial F/I parts.

Don't get me wrong, I love this platform and I'm sure it is amazing with boost. I'd love to own a boosted twin. But with all the engine & trans failures I'm leaning towards the cautious side.

I'm glad you have that resolve. Erring on the side of caution isn't bad. I sense you will continue enjoying your car this way. But I must emphasize that I don't expect the engine to blow. I don't wring it out everywhere and the car is proven more robust than people give it credit for.

My cost justification was I'd have lost thousands selling my car and thousands more buying a higher performing one and paying taxes. Then there's the question of how it was used. I couldn't leave the comfort of knowing how I took care of mine from day one. FI made more sense being a small investment compared to the alternative and proven it could be kept reliable. Granted, FI makes no sense to NA enthusiasts. But because I also once was gung ho NA, the linearity of a supercharger got me. Otherwise, if one doesn't already have a BRZ, I still say get a 987.

[Ganthrithor]

Originally Posted by Coaster

Question for Porsche owners.
What is it like going from a car like a Subaru, Honda, Toyota to a Porsche?

Fucking expensive. :P

Really though, it's no joke. If you're considering Porsches that exist in BRZ pricing territory, you're considering a well-used Porsche. When things break (even really stupid little things like a failed sensor in a door latch that causes your frameless door windows to misbehave) you're going to spend truly ridiculous amounts of money. By comparison, I don't think I've paid any money out of pocket to fix anything on the BRZ since I bought it in 2013: I've had a couple of oil leaks around the camshaft towers / timing chain cover and a failing throwout bearing, both of which Subaru fixed under warranty. I suspect that's largely just the difference between owning a car for the first 50k miles vs owning a car that's done almost 100k. The Subaru may require more serious maintenance going forward. But even if it does, it's likely to cost a lot less to fix the BRZ than it does to fix anything on the Porsche.

That said, the cars are definitely on a different level in terms of fit and finish, ride quality, power, and noise. If you can budget $2000/yr for maintenance and you spend a lot of time commuting / doing boring stuff / having other people in your car, the Porsche will be a nicer car. If you spend a lot of time driving hard and don't have to worry about annoying your passengers with lots of noise and NVH, then either car is a good option-- the driving dynamics of the Subaru are great. Obviously the Porsche will give you more performance: this is sometimes fun and sometimes frustrating, as it can feel rare to have the space and lack of traffic required to enjoy your car. Porsche's have long gears (you'll be doing 70 by the end of 2nd), which is a bit sad since one of the finest bits of the Porsche experience is listening to their engines wind out to redline: a flat six at high RPM and WOT sounds sublime (especially if you delete the factory intake resonator, which really brings out the howling induction note).

Porsche: fast, effortless in normal traffic, smoother ride, less annoying noise and NVH. Nice fit and finish. $$$$ to maintain (also it's easy to drink fuel). Car is still tons of fun to drive hard, despite the better daily driving characteristics. Sounds amazing. People will think you're an asshole Porsche driver.

Subaru: cheap, lots of fun, can be enjoyed more at lower speeds as long as you don't go crazy with wheels + tyres, sounds like a slightly-irritated vacuum cleaner when you rev it out (pretty much regardless of what you do to the exhaust/intake systems). Subaru is somehow more expansive to insure than a Porsche. People will think you're an asshole Ferrari driver whose Ferrari somehow sounds like a riced-out Civic.

[WolfpackS2k]

even really stupid little things like a failed sensor in a door latch that causes your frameless door windows to misbehave

Grrrrrrrr, I've got that problem currently with my driver's side window. Damn window fully extends when door is open! Which means I can't close the door in normal fashion without the glass slamming into the door frame

And don't get me started on the TPMS's. Every damn day my car tells me I have a flat tire, more than once.