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Suspension | Chassis | Brakes -- Sponsored by 949 Racing Relating to suspension, chassis, and brakes. Sponsored by 949 Racing.


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Old 01-26-2021, 01:34 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Ultramaroon View Post
Would be interesting but I argue that we've already confirmed that it's snake oil if we actually needed a strain gauge to measure any difference. I'd start by jacking up one wheel or even opposite corners to induce some crazy longitudinal torsion. If the doors open and close ok, snake oil confirmed.

We should still do the arduino project just for the experience. I've installed strain gauges and done all manner of data acquisition but I've never played with an arduino or raspberry device. Would welcome some peer pressure to get me motivated.
That is a good point

I have an Arduino Uno sitting on my desk, been looking for something to do with it.
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Old 01-26-2021, 02:01 PM   #58
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While we are bench racing on other peoples qualitative experiences might as well bust out the tri-axial accelerometer.
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Old 01-26-2021, 02:15 PM   #59
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I have an Arduino Uno sitting on my desk, been looking for something to do with it.
Pre- and post-oil pump pressures!
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Old 01-26-2021, 02:53 PM   #60
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Pre- and post-oil pump pressures!
I have a new toy for that already and the software to go with it. I just need to get another pressure gauge. And module to pickup an RPM signal. And to drill and tap my other timing cover for the sending units.
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Old 01-26-2021, 03:19 PM   #61
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...but is it possible that you are being a little too generous in interpreting their perceived effects?
Absolutely. You could've said probable instead of possible and I'd not have a sound logical argument to respond with. I'm human and as I said in the first post, I've tried to be as fair as I can be. Tone is nearly impossible to decipher on forums so if I may...

The search function wonk we have right now makes it impossible to go back and double-check the actual numbers so bear with me. As I recall, there are 55 pages of threads if you do an advanced search for Cusco as a keyword in the title. 17 pages with the same search just in the suspension section of the forum. That's a lot of threads and they include everything from selling a Cusco radiator cap to coilover installation questions and everything in-between.

I'm a Cusco fan and have been for a long time across different platforms. And they also have one of the most, if not the most, comprehensive catalog of bracing for this platorm. This started because after reading through 17 pages of threads most of them look a lot like this...

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143526

...and it is possible that mathematically speaking, bracing offers zero benefit. But it's not probable that every bit of bracing is entirely worthless. So I decided that with very little to do during a pandemic and shelter-in-place orders I'd experiment with adding bracing. I'd always wanted to take a brand new car and do the modifications with as few miles as possible. I think we can both agree that swapping out bushings with 75,000 miles in a salty/harsh/race environment is going to come with raving reviews, even if the replacement bushings are OEM.

This is just one thread in a sea of threads that has not devolved into a total shitshow. Some good feedback, suggestions, points-of-view, etc. from people that have bracing, bushings, a mix, or are looking for opinions on them. Some have installed the same braces and had similar results and some didn't. Some have bushings instead and some have bushings in conjunction with. All things considered, if I were brand new to this platform and forum and did a search, this has turned into a pretty good variety pack of thoughts/theories/methodologies. From people that actually have the items being discussed.

I know you're not the biggest fan of bracing and I wish you were local. I've offered my car up to anyone that wants to drive it as an instant comparison. My descriptors probably make a lot more sense too if you are near the Santa Cruz Mountains and have taken every road that leads to Alice's. That insane 45 degree inclined hairpin on Bear Creek Road that feels like it was paved using tank tracks its so washboarded is hard to describe in a way that makes sense to anyone that hasn't experienced it. Anyone that has taken that road at a good clip knows the ass of the car is going to ask stability control for a little assistance and getting power to transfer from the tires to the pavement is going to be the opposite of fun. Stating that the rear side member braces, as an example, eliminate most of the vehicular issues in that corner can be interpreted as total nonsense/placebo from afar and at the same time be provable at a local level.
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Old 01-27-2021, 03:24 AM   #62
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As you rightly pointed out, not everyone is a fan of bracing. But once you have tried it and if you feel or perceive the effects then you become a fan.

Thats my case. I have tried bracing of all kinds in my previous car, Corolla Axio GT ( JDM ) and I found them to work very well. Some of their effects you perceive more and some less.

For example, the front strut brace made the car understeer and once I tried driving without it, just for fun, and the car rotated well for a FWD. Ever since its place was under the bed.LOL

The best brace that has always put a smile on my face is the four point front member brace. In any car that i used it, the steering felt more precise and slightly heavier. " I prefer a heavy steering than a light one".

The thing is, not everyone is so tactile enough to perceive the effects. And that's perfectly normal, as we are all different. Sometimes it also helps to drive a stock car for a while and when you modify one thing at a time then you are able to discern the differences.

As H. Naruse'san always said, " Spend sometime under the car without doing anything and everything will be clear to you".
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Old 01-27-2021, 11:11 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by PulsarBeeerz View Post
While we are bench racing on other peoples qualitative experiences might as well bust out the tri-axial accelerometer.
The problem with qualitative experience is that my qualitative experience will differ from yours, and the next guys, and the next. I prefer data.

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As you rightly pointed out, not everyone is a fan of bracing. But once you have tried it and if you feel or perceive the effects then you become a fan.
The real question is do those perceived benefits actually make a difference in performance ? I quite like the steering rack lock downs on the twin, but do they improve the performance of car that translates to a faster lap time? Or my ability to drive it quicker? Not one bit. There is nothing wrong with adding something that improves your enjoyment in driving your car, but this doesn't always come with an actual gain in performance but there seems to be this belief that feels better=more performance when a lot of times I don't belief that is the actual case.
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Old 01-27-2021, 02:34 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG View Post
The real question is do those perceived benefits actually make a difference in performance ? I quite like the steering rack lock downs on the twin, but do they improve the performance of car that translates to a faster lap time? Or my ability to drive it quicker? Not one bit. There is nothing wrong with adding something that improves your enjoyment in driving your car, but this doesn't always come with an actual gain in performance but there seems to be this belief that feels better=more performance when a lot of times I don't belief that is the actual case.
It doesn't appear that any of us that have these chassis reinforcement parts claimed that they improve lap times. We (at least I) have only indicated that they improve feel/behavior and enjoyment of the car.

I've said this in another thead: I can admit and agree that these parts make little or no difference in lap times, but it does improve feel, confidence and fun if you care more about the driving experience rather than measurable numbers (e.g. if you don't track and just do canyon runs). I would put these parts in the same "feel-mod" realm as brake master cylinder braces, for example. They don't help you stop faster, but it certainly feels more solid and confidence-inspiring.
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Old 01-27-2021, 03:00 PM   #65
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I haven't done bracing yet in my car but from previous experience i can relate to more confidence when driving spiritedly.

My understanding is that when you feel/perceive the car better then it helps you push harder. The chassis 'talks' to you in a certain way and helping you find the limits more easily. The stock car is more muffled in certain areas and rightly so since it has to appeal to the masses. But some mods, be it uprated bushings, inserts or braces, help bring forward some type of precision where you feel more confident.
More confidence = better lap times.

But who doesn't love precision in a nicely modded car?

Im also relieved to hear that others too have also heard the slight creaks in the B pillars and the doors when going on rough tarmacs. Thought i was being paranoid. LOL!
Will eventually do the TRD door stabilizer.
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Old 01-27-2021, 03:48 PM   #66
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It doesn't appear that any of us that have these chassis reinforcement parts claimed that they improve lap times. We (at least I) have only indicated that they improve feel/behavior and enjoyment of the car.

I've said this in another thead: I can admit and agree that these parts make little or no difference in lap times, but it does improve feel, confidence and fun if you care more about the driving experience rather than measurable numbers (e.g. if you don't track and just do canyon runs). I would put these parts in the same "feel-mod" realm as brake master cylinder braces, for example. They don't help you stop faster, but it certainly feels more solid and confidence-inspiring.
I just used lap times in my example, not saying anyone or everyone was claiming this. Most of the claims are about how X part improved handling, but no further explanation or quantitive data. Not solely referring to this thread either. My comment goes back to the perceived thought that improved feel = improved performance, when really improved feel just equals...improved feel. There is absolutely no problem with that, I just kind of roll my eyes at comments that insinuate an improvement in performance.
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Old 01-27-2021, 09:27 PM   #67
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At the end of the day though, for 99.9% of us, isn't it true that performance=feel? If you aren't getting paid to drive the car, lap times are just as irrelevant as anything else. Some people enjoy them as a measure, while others enjoy how the car behaves in a set of s-curves on their daily commute. I think the feeling the car brings you is the performance, to a great extent.

From another angle, performance is also as specific to the driver and the conditions, regardless of whether we're talking about feel or a lap time. A car could be brilliant on one track and hot trash on another with the same set of mods, and the same applies to feel on one set of streets vs another.

All that to say, I don't have a problem with semi-scientific subjective analyses, because if you dig deep enough, that's all we really have in any case.
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Old 01-27-2021, 09:57 PM   #68
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I just used lap times in my example, not saying anyone or everyone was claiming this. Most of the claims are about how X part improved handling, but no further explanation or quantitive data. Not solely referring to this thread either. My comment goes back to the perceived thought that improved feel = improved performance, when really improved feel just equals...improved feel. There is absolutely no problem with that, I just kind of roll my eyes at comments that insinuate an improvement in performance.
Fair enough, I understand where you're coming from. It seems everyone has a different use/interpretation of words when they're trying to describe the difference with these parts.

For example, it sounds like "improved performance" for you means going quicker or reduced lap times. Whereas for someone else, "improved performance" with stiffer engine mounts for example, could just be their way of describing less engine pitch/bucking; not necessarily saying that you'll accelerate faster.

Or "improved handling" with a strut/chassis brace was their way of describing sharper turn-in or less jittery behavior over road imperfections, not necessarily saying you can take corners at a higher speed and/or at higher G's.

I'm no engineer, but I imagine these kinds of differences would be complex and probably expensive to measure if it's even possible. That may be some reasons for the lack of measurable or quantitative data.

Even some of the "feel" is kinda hard to scientifically describe. It's like the car in stock form feels put together with rubber bands and duct tape, whereas adding the braces and stiffer mounts/bushings makes it feel more like a welded solid piece. Exaggerated example, but hopefully it gets the point across.
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Old 05-06-2021, 02:30 PM   #69
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Is there anyone who has the under panels with braces ?

Would like to know if there are any interferences.

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Old 05-06-2021, 02:51 PM   #70
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No issues with OEM plastic panels, Verus diffuser, tranny tunnel cover, and suspension/diff covers in conjunction with the bracing.
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