best O2 spacer for ACE 350 header?

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Dzmitry

I would say with owning ACE and everything I have learned from it in reading every forum and subject about it, you likely won't see 10HP from the header itself. I can't relate specifically as I got the tune done pretty much right away, but likely you'll have a little more power mid range and very little up top (4-8HP maybe).

Yeah, that's pretty much my guess for header-only. I threw 10hp out there as a max kind of "worst case" for needing a tune (more power, needs more fuel, presumably ltft only goes so far...).

ACE350 does not do any wonders at peak HP numbers even after a tune, at least not for the average folk. Its strongest gain comes in mid range.

Yeah, my stock dyno results tell me the engine is already breathing very well with peak power at 7000rpm as advertised. Hoping for torque bump between 5000 and stock 2nd torque peak at 6500-6800 and anything on top is bonus
Do you have dyno plots to share?

Can't comment much on the fuel trims, but again, I don't exactly see a major point in tracking with the header and no tune. If there is even the SLIGHTEST risk of something going wrong... why take it?

I still don't see it as a big risk. Factory tune may not be perfect but has a gazillion more test miles on it and development hours behind it. Also, a "tune" adds a classification point, 41 lb. to my competition weight.
Really though, ideally I'd just dyno before tune and then dyno again after. Like I said, I'm *curious*.

In terms of feel before you get the tune, you probably won't feel much of anything up top, but will feel a bump in mid-range.

I don't really even expect to "feel" anything significant, but figure it's likely worth a couple/few tenths at the track, which I'm likely to need vs. friend and competitor who just upgraded from '13 BRZ to '17 86 and got a Tomei EL header for it. Arms race...

EDIT: Here's a random thread to take a quick look at that shows the contrary from the big ACE gains you may have seen. Much like you, I took everything with a grain of salt when I was researching and buying into this. Either way I am not disappointed with my results.
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...23#post3201023

Wow. So ACE350 tails falls off above 6500 without a specific tune for it? Did he ever get a tune for the ACE? If so I'd be *very* interested to see his before/after...

ACE header is still in my kitchen and not on the car, I got SV650 running yesterday and went for ride, today it's raining, I'm outta town next weekend and track event is weekend following. Unless I get somebody to install it for me it might have to wait until after 1st event (doh!)

[Goingnowherefast]

The easy button is just getting the ACE350 tune from Delicious Tuning (https://www.delicioustuning.com/Stage_2_BRZ_FRS_86). They do revisions based on your datalogs. These ECU's are pretty legit though, so it doesn't take much time and there's barely anything to be gained with a full dyno tune.

Originally Posted by ZDan

I still don't see it as a big risk. Factory tune may not be perfect but has a gazillion more test miles on it and development hours behind it. Also, a "tune" adds a classification point, 41 lb. to my competition weight.
Really though, ideally I'd just dyno before tune and then dyno again after. Like I said, I'm *curious*.

I mean if you're really looking for gains, don't even get a header just run an E85 tune. You can hit 200 whp with all stock hardware with just E85 and a tune. Not sure how that is on points vs. headers. What racing sanction is it? Source:

[Dzmitry]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Wow. So ACE350 tails falls off above 6500 without a specific tune for it? Did he ever get a tune for the ACE? If so I'd be *very* interested to see his before/after...

ACE header is still in my kitchen and not on the car, I got SV650 running yesterday and went for ride, today it's raining, I'm outta town next weekend and track event is weekend following. Unless I get somebody to install it for me it might have to wait until after 1st event (doh!)

I don't believe that dyno is a good representation of ACE, I was more throwing the thread out there to you to show you that if those are the kind of results one can get after tuning, you aren't likely to see much prior to the tune.

I believe ACE does a great job of filling in the whole power band and doing it all the way up to the peak. Not sure what the issue was in that example thread. I do have my dyno to show you below, but I do not have a stock one or any other to compare it.

This is with a K&N filter, ACE headers and overpipe, and CSG Touring86 cat-back. This dyno was done on a colder day and in 4th gear (due to a smaller fan up front and the risk of more heat in 5th gear). Prior to the dyno, I was tuned by Xero-Limit with a couple revisions. I mainly went to the dyno for experience as it was my first time, and also to squeeze a couple extra ponies out for fun, which ended up working out pretty well!

[Dzmitry]

One thing to add to my dyno as well, is that the tuner explained to me that he could smooth out and get a tiny bit more right at the peak, but it comes with some small risks. I don't exactly recall what it was, but the tuner did mention that no one he had ever known had experienced any issues with doing the extra little bit up top, so he gave me the option of whether I wanted that little bit or not. Since I am not tracking or crazy about an extra couple HP up top, as it is mostly my DD, I just had him leave it at that. And again, I can't speak much for comparison to stock or anything, but I can tell you the car feels fantastic all around and is plenty quicker than she was stock. I do have a video of me going through 2nd gear from 2.5-7.5k RPM. My plan with that was to compare it to now, I just haven't gotten around to making a video since my header and tune. But when I do, I can post my results.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Dzmitry

I don't believe that dyno is a good representation of ACE, I was more throwing the thread out there to you to show you that if those are the kind of results one can get after tuning, you aren't likely to see much prior to the tune.

Not gonna lie, those results and yours with power peaking below 7000rpm and falling off, are kinda disconcerting. FWIW here's the Excel version of my Dynojet results (with SAE correction and smoothing at 5):
[img]https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.s2ki.com-vbulletin/1170x725/2017brzdyno_32aaf4b1cd5054ee15ad9d77006c0d0f8d***f 56.png[/img]

Like you suggested, the ACE seems to fill in and add to the midrange, but nothing up top. Same 178rwhp peak, but mine maxes at 138 lb-ft way up at 6500-6800, ACE seems to max at higher torque, 145 lb-ft, but down around 4500rpm. So yeah, bumped-up/filled-in midrange but nothing more up top.

Thread you linked to, dark plots are ACE, right? Similar dropoff at 6500:


Hmmm...

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Goingnowherefast

The easy button is just getting the ACE350 tune from Delicious Tuning (https://www.delicioustuning.com/Stage_2_BRZ_FRS_86). They do revisions based on your datalogs. These ECU's are pretty legit though, so it doesn't take much time and there's barely anything to be gained with a full dyno tune.

Pondering my tune options...

I mean if you're really looking for gains, don't even get a header just run an E85 tune. You can hit 200 whp with all stock hardware with just E85 and a tune. Not sure how that is on points vs. headers. What racing sanction is it?

Neither myself nor my main competitor (unless a ringer shows up!) in my class wanna trouble with E85. It's not available near most tracks we go to. Organization is COMSCC, we run tracks in New England and Canada (when there's no pandemic!). I haven't scoured the rules for ramifications of running E85, I'm sure it's a point or two, or maybe requires dyno results from approved dyno to assign points.

[ZDan]

Might make another thread for this, but since there's no way *I'm* gonna install this header between now and track days May 8/9, does anyone know a good Subie shop in Boston/Providence/eastern CT region to install a header? TIA!

[Dzmitry]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Not gonna lie, those results and yours with power peaking below 7000rpm and falling off, are kinda disconcerting. FWIW here's the Excel version of my Dynojet results (with SAE correction and smoothing at 5)

Like you suggested, the ACE seems to fill in and add to the midrange, but nothing up top. Same 178rwhp peak, but mine maxes at 138 lb-ft way up at 6500-6800, ACE seems to max at higher torque, 145 lb-ft, but down around 4500rpm. So yeah, bumped-up/filled-in midrange but nothing more up top.

Thread you linked to, dark plots are ACE, right? Similar dropoff at 6500:

Hmmm...

Again, I would take that with a grain of salt as well. I can guarantee you that from stock, I gained a good amount at peak, even if there was a very slight shift in where the peak is. Mine is not very concerning at all, as peak arrives just about the same RPM as does stock (6800 in my case). And again, I can't get into much explaining for why, but I could have gained a little more up top and had a smoother curve, I just chose not to. That's something a tuner would have to explain to you, as I forget exactly what the deal was there.

It also seems to vary from car to car significantly. Many of our cars don't truly peak at 7k RPM. Here's an popular example you may have seen in the past that shows ACE making strong gains over stock, peaking very well over stock, but not at 7k.

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show....php?p=3047845

In the end, I believe your concern is that you will not get any gains up top and actually lose power earlier / shift the peak? I don't believe that is the case I am making here. Simply, that there are peak focused headers out there that can make more right up top than this one. But this header tends to add some of the highest gains OVERALL throughout the curve and is fantastic for track.

There could also be some discrepancy, as my car is 2017+, while yours is pre if I'm not mistaking?

[meltover]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Pondering my tune options...


Neither myself nor my main competitor (unless a ringer shows up!) in my class wanna trouble with E85. It's not available near most tracks we go to. Organization is COMSCC, we run tracks in New England and Canada (when there's no pandemic!). I haven't scoured the rules for ramifications of running E85, I'm sure it's a point or two, or maybe requires dyno results from approved dyno to assign points.

Zach @ CSG is arguably the best FA20 tuner, he used to work at Delicious and helped develop the base map for the ACE tunes, where a bunch of dyno work went into it. Since Zach's departure I've heard some meh things from Delicious.

He is a perfectionist, and from my personal experience he is very professional and fast to send out revisions. He'll answer all your questions politely and in detail, there are no "stupid questions" with him. Highly recommended to go with CSG for tuning.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Dzmitry

Again, I would take that with a grain of salt as well. I can guarantee you that from stock, I gained a good amount at peak, even if there was a very slight shift in where the peak is. Mine is not very concerning at all, as peak arrives just about the same RPM as does stock (6800 in my case). And again, I can't get into much explaining for why, but I could have gained a little more up top and had a smoother curve, I just chose not to. That's something a tuner would have to explain to you, as I forget exactly what the deal was there.

Maybe tuned conservatively on the rich side? The factory tune is dead-flat at ~13 a/f all the way up on my car (see below).

It also seems to vary from car to car significantly. Many of our cars don't truly peak at 7k RPM. Here's an popular example you may have seen in the past that shows ACE making strong gains over stock, peaking very well over stock, but not at 7k.

My '17 peaked at exactly 7000rpm, power and torque exactly matched factory rating at flywheel * 0.87.

In the end, I believe your concern is that you will not get any gains up top and actually lose power earlier / shift the peak? I don't believe that is the case I am making here. Simply, that there are peak focused headers out there that can make more right up top than this one. But this header tends to add some of the highest gains OVERALL throughout the curve and is fantastic for track.

Hope to see gains everywhere, including up top. We shall see! Probably no time to get dyno'd before tune...

[Dzmitry]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Maybe tuned conservatively on the rich side? The factory tune is dead-flat at ~13 a/f all the way up on my car (see below).


My '17 peaked at exactly 7000rpm, power and torque exactly matched factory rating at flywheel * 0.87.

Hope to see gains everywhere, including up top. We shall see! Probably no time to get dyno'd before tune...

I wouldn't say conservatively for me, except for a little maybe at the very peak as I said. But again, it varies plenty enough from car to car with different dyno's, temps, gear runs, etc. You should certainly see gains everywhere without a doubt with a good tune. I know I have gains all around, but I couldn't tell you how much as I never dyno'd stock. But the car feels quicker everywhere, and definitely feels faster even up top, just nothing significant. As we can agree, the engine is already near its peak, so there's only so much the header will bring out.

Look forward to hearing your thoughts and results on it!

[nikitopo]

Do you have an oil cooler? If you go with a leaner tune and a catless header , then engine temperatures will go higher. As usual, you change one thing and then you need to change other things. Not sure how well this will work with your classification points.