GruppeM Ram Air System Intake

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by Ogt

I’m not sure how EVERYONE does it and I understand the pump states “up to 55-85%” which leaves a lot to argue. At least where I live (Wisconsin) I know firsthand that the blend does do 85% ethanol and finishes off with 15% unleaded. Give or take 1-3 gallons margin of error (over a total of 500+ gal)

In Oklahoma, there is actually a sticker on the pump that says it's legally required to be at least 70%. Which is fine because you're not really going to anymore power with a higher ethanol content.

Friends that have gauges in their car to monitor it always say it's always right at 70-71% ethanol.

[Dzmitry]

Originally Posted by CincyJohn

That's a pretty good deal. But that is an off-the-shelf tune, right? And is that a single tune?

I understand with a FlexFuel Kit, you really have no need to switch tunes like you would using an OFT with no FlexFuel, but that gets back to needing to buy and install a FlexFuel kit in order to be able to live with a single tune.

And then you are still talking about a stock tune that is not optimized for your car (just like OFT). If you want to optimize using a dyno/tuner, I think you are talking an extra $750 - $1000, right?

Conversely, you had guys getting optimized tunes for OFT (obviously, not nearly as specialized as tuner/dyno tunes) for $50 - $100.

Don't get me wrong, I like options. And if I was going FI on a Gen 1 (or a Gen 2 or that matter), I could see spending the time/money for a very customized tune using ECUTek.

Mine (and others) only point is that it was hard to beat the bang-for-the-buck you got out of OFT on Gen1 and that any complaints about customer service (at least for those of us late, late adopters) falls on deaf ears because all we want expect is the hardware product/stock tunes. I was always intending to pay Steve or Wayno to optimize and given the wealth of information on this forum, I never expected to ever even correspond with Shiv (and I didn't).

I mean I think I've settled enough with the answers I got. But I still have to admit that for a car like this, for myself, I preferred the Ecutek even bang for buck wise. But maybe I can admit a lot of that comes down to my preference and opinion.

But to answer some of your questions - no, this was not an off the shelf tune. The $750 price included infinite tunes, this is how professional Ecutek tuners typically sell you their setup. So I got the full kit, software, and endless tuning. When I first bought the kit, I got a great standard tune with a few revisions. I then bought headers and got retuned with a few revisions. Lastly, I got a flex-fuel kit much later and got retuned again with a few revisions. All of these tunes and revisions were included in the $750 price. That's what makes it so unbeatable IMO. I feel as though I paid the right price from the start and got an optimized tune for every setup I've had throughout my vehicle ownership.

And again, the flex-fuel kit was simply for my peace of mind. I did not have to go that route. I can have simply asked to tune for some % of ethanol based on whatever ethanol % average I tend to fill up on and my tuner would have set me up for that, all included in that original $750 package. I could also easily have a few maps setup for different ethanol percentages like E60, E70, E80, and a standard 91/93 octane map. That would have negated the necessity for a flex-fuel kit and I would still be sitting at $750. But again, I only went the flex-fuel route because it would drive me nuts, and I loved the idea of a constant optimal tune adjustment allowing me to fill up whatever fuel I want, whenever I want, and be completely care free. Just for numbers reference, I got my flex kit for $550 - well worth it to me. Especially because I don't have great access to E85 and used to not even want to go E85 tune. I have only one station 15-20 mins from home, and it is in the opposite direction from anywhere I typically drive to.

I don't mean at all to come off like OFT is trash. I can see the reasoning behind it better now. But you can probably see that with my numbers and thought process, Ecutek made pretty damn good sense and was worth every dollar over OFT for the results I got. But maybe that's just me

[Blighty]

On the youtube channel they are suggesting 10hp, if you look at the blitz part (co-designed with gruppe) the dyno suggest that the increase in pressure (probably only just a tiny amount really compared with a turbo for instance) creates a decent effect across most of the range. Particularly after 5k where I assume its starts to be needed more as the airflow requirements to fill the new large cylinders start outpacing the ability of the system to provide it.

I feel a little left out not commenting on such a wonderfully typical ft86 intake post, so my turn.

Not sure how fast those fans were spinning, but constant fan speed on a dyno would produce constant effect with the air ram process, so having an all across the rang increase in hp isn't completely physics breaking.

I don't really buy into the idea that the existing ECU doesn't account for the intake, they are constantly working to an ideal air fuel ratio from its correction factors and plenty of sensors to get the job done (off the basemap of course), and I find the idea that the change would be outside of the change of pressure/oxygen or air temps between high and low pressure atmospheric condition from things like the weather and elevation to be a bit hard to believe. We all feel it when its a hot or cold day and when we are at high elevation etc. This isn't like the complexity of back pressure an exhausts as far as the ECU goes I think - which probably need new base maps right.

Yes, any ''short ram'' shitty box you put in the car that is actually drawing in hot air and potentially from an even worse air pressure under the hood than outside (again from the heat) is worse than a waste of money, its robbing you blind with performance because it does not compare with the very well designed OEM intake the 86/GR86/BRZ has.

But this type of intake, yes I see it being 'better' than stock with some benefits realised (particularly if you live in high altitudes where the effect would like be a touch more effective) without any tune required. I wouldn't take any manufacturers test on numbers though - looking forward to someone independently test it. It does look good, that counts

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Blighty

On the youtube channel they are suggesting 10hp, if you look at the blitz part (co-designed with gruppe) the dyno suggest that the increase in pressure (probably only just a tiny amount really compared with a turbo for instance) creates a decent effect across most of the range. Particularly after 5k where I assume its starts to be needed more as the airflow requirements to fill the new large cylinders start outpacing the ability of the system to provide it.

I feel a little left out not commenting on such a wonderfully typical ft86 intake post, so my turn.

Not sure how fast those fans were spinning, but constant fan speed on a dyno would produce constant effect with the air ram process, so having an all across the rang increase in hp isn't completely physics breaking.

I don't really buy into the idea that the existing ECU doesn't account for the intake, they are constantly working to an ideal air fuel ratio from its correction factors and plenty of sensors to get the job done (off the basemap of course), and I find the idea that the change would be outside of the change of pressure/oxygen or air temps between high and low pressure atmospheric condition from things like the weather and elevation to be a bit hard to believe. We all feel it when its a hot or cold day and when we are at high elevation etc. This isn't like the complexity of back pressure an exhausts as far as the ECU goes I think - which probably need new base maps right.

Yes, any ''short ram'' shitty box you put in the car that is actually drawing in hot air and potentially from an even worse air pressure under the hood than outside (again from the heat) is worse than a waste of money, its robbing you blind with performance because it does not compare with the very well designed OEM intake the 86/GR86/BRZ has.

But this type of intake, yes I see it being 'better' than stock with some benefits realised (particularly if you live in high altitudes where the effect would like be a touch more effective) without any tune required. I wouldn't take any manufacturers test on numbers though - looking forward to someone independently test it. It does look good, that counts

It's not that the ECU can't compensate, but the more you are asking the ECU to compensate the worse the car's driveability since it is doing so after the fact. The problem is most CAI's throw the MAF scaling off. The MAF sends a voltage reading to the ECU, the ECU has a scaling table that correlates the MAF voltage signal to airflow. If the scaling isn't right the car drives like poo. The other issue is some CAI's don't send clean airflow to the MAF so it doesn't get consistent readings and you end up with the same effect.

I also posted earlier, but on a 1200hp pro stock car the ram intake added about 12hp at 90mph.The idea has merit, it just isn't significant in practical application.

[Blighty]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

It's not that the ECU can't compensate, but the more you are asking the ECU to compensate the worse the car's driveability since it is doing so after the fact. The problem is most CAI's throw the MAF scaling off. The MAF sends a voltage reading to the ECU, the ECU has a scaling table that correlates the MAF voltage signal to airflow. If the scaling isn't right the car drives like poo. The other issue is some CAI's don't send clean airflow to the MAF so it doesn't get consistent readings and you end up with the same effect.

I also posted earlier, but on a 1200hp pro stock car the ram intake added about 12hp at 90mph.The idea has merit, it just isn't significant in practical application.

Thats annoying - Surely you can push air past your maf sensor and the stock one in the same test tube and know exactly that. I mean you would have to be pretty darn lazy to not want to get the same sensor output. I guess if you buy cheap as chips parts and they have bad QC and a lot of variance then you could be in trouble.

Yeah I have no idea what end gains are had for us, but I would imagine that pro-stock car had pretty darn good intake (ITBs?) drawing cold air already. Same goes for a number of motorbikes where we can look at these things, they already have instant flow in the intake without a air ram.

When I'm thinking about this I also have in mind that a very simple short ram pod filter added to our car with StratifiedAuto (albeit with an open bonnet and therefore cool atmospheric air) did legitimately add 10hp to ours up top to give you an example of what is lost when our car attempts to suck up the intake, through the factory filter and into the manifold.

So I am very interested if in the very least the solution can help replicate just that kind of airflow with even just the smallest amount of positive pressure.

It will be interesting to get some real world data.

[Blighty]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

It's not that the ECU can't compensate, but the more you are asking the ECU to compensate the worse the car's driveability since it is doing so after the fact. The problem is most CAI's throw the MAF scaling off. The MAF sends a voltage reading to the ECU, the ECU has a scaling table that correlates the MAF voltage signal to airflow. If the scaling isn't right the car drives like poo. The other issue is some CAI's don't send clean airflow to the MAF so it doesn't get consistent readings and you end up with the same effect.

I also posted earlier, but on a 1200hp pro stock car the ram intake added about 12hp at 90mph.The idea has merit, it just isn't significant in practical application.

So I looked up the MAF sensor issue, and it suggest that its all about the turbulence at the MAF point. That makes sense - and would require actual proper fluid dynamics in your design. Though like everything, you can instead work of airflow concepts and prototype and test until it works. Just like the good old days

[Blighty]

Just a sneaky add here. Just had a surprise ECUTEK post made on the site (gr86 . org).

=D
=D
=D

[Re_Invention]

Originally Posted by villainous_frx

I only skimmed the first 7 pages of this thread, but Blitz Japan has a nearly identical intake... lol.
https://www.blitz.co.jp/wp-content/u.../2022-0149.pdf

Since I didn't see it mentioned and I'd like to add gasoline to the fire; Blitz includes a dyno for their (identical) intake.



As far as the EcuTek announcement goes - WOO HOO!!!

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by Blighty

Just a sneaky add here. Just had a surprise ECUTEK post made on the site (gr86 . org).

=D
=D
=D

I see why you didn't bother sharing the link as it's a nothing burger. Basically the exact same response I got when I emailed them two months ago. IE, "We're working on it, but don't know when it will be available to our tuners."

EDIT: Really? This site auto bans links to that site?

[Ogt]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

I see why you didn't bother sharing the link as it's a nothing burger. Basically the exact same response I got when I emailed them two months ago. IE, "We're working on it, but don't know when it will be available to our tuners."

EDIT: Really? This site auto bans links to that site?

Tldr; nothing available yet, we are making progress, not even beta testing currently

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Re_Invention

Since I didn't see it mentioned and I'd like to add gasoline to the fire; Blitz includes a dyno for their (identical) intake.

How much can you get with only a tune? Where's that line?

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by Ogt

Tldr; nothing available yet, we are making progress, not even beta testing currently

Thanks for quoting me to say exactly what I said? I guess?

[Blighty]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

I see why you didn't bother sharing the link as it's a nothing burger. Basically the exact same response I got when I emailed them two months ago. IE, "We're working on it, but don't know when it will be available to our tuners."

EDIT: Really? This site auto bans links to that site?

Yes, it auto bans links to that site. I would of absolutely done that - I share links from that site to here instead of just reposting that information (as ft86 is such a great community resource - and posters here deserve the credit), but ft86 for whatever reason would rather live on an island. Its a bit bogus honestly, but that's how it is.

On the update side, I mean I disagree - They said they made some breakthroughs and now seem to have a path forward. That to me sounds like the have cracked the protection, and now they need to go about doing the programming interface. I'd expect beta testing to happen pretty soon.

I will repost one bit I got in a question about if it will support the different ECU firmwares in australia (probably didnt need to ask, but I was excited).

"Hi, we are quietly excited here! And yes it will be worldwide when it is launched so you'll be all good in Aus."

[mycrors7]

here's a video i found of the install procedure. skip to to the 8:49 mark for a sound comparison between stock and the gruppeM

this isnt my car or my video... it just happened to pop up

definitely changes sound. i dislike the MAF placement though