Vortech Supercharging System Update - More boost, more POWER!

[2forme]

Originally Posted by Opposed

@Sportsguy83

Do I think 240 whp at 9 psi is enough? To be honest, no. I am still torn between this and the Fullblown kit (plus I live about 10 min from them) but here is what my opinion is. I have owned many turbo cars in the past. Where they fast and fun and made cool noises? Absolutely. But I daily drive my cars. Every day, to work and back, to the store, to the mall ect. That includes MN winters that see -10 in the middle of Jan. and 95 degreees with 80% humidity in the summer. I have always had little issues with my turbo kits once you start getting abouve 50-60k miles. (does not mean everyone will) but the heat, and leaking oil lines, and coolent lines, and leaking wastegates all added up to problems with me. For this car, I wanted a clean set-up. Nothing to blow the doors off of a Vette. The Vortech kit is about the same price. BUT, I can install this myself, less parts (no oil lines, no tapping into OEM oil pan), and less heat, and overall less maint. To me, my gut tells me that over time, this could be more reliable for my driving conditions. I came from the S2000 community, and I know guys that put Vortech kits on their cars brand new and now have over 160k miles on them without issues. That is what im hoping to achieve. I hope that helps.

You can have similar problems with SC kits as well. The vortech needs it's oil changed every 7500 miles, and if it starts to leak (which I've seen a vortech do)... well... then a rebuild is probably necessary. My other car is turboed with 230k on it. Never had a problem with the turbo or parts associated with it.

I also believe the AVO kit is more bolt on than this kit. Only one plastic piece is required to be modified, where the Vortech kit apparently requires a bit more (bumper plastics, alternator bracket, wiring harness etc).

Not trying to start a turbo vs sc or AVO vs Vortech, but the issues you listed aren't relegated to just turbos. SC's can have oil issues and boost leak issues as well.

[whtchocla7e]

Originally Posted by Sportsguy83

Honestly and genuinely I would like to know, why are you impressed with 249 WHP and 180 WTQ @ 9 psi (considering other kits are pushing more)?

For someone who daily drives their car, reliability and legalities are big issues. You can't measure the value of a kit with dyno charts.

[Foobar]

For me, I've always been aiming for around 300 crank HP. For a relatively light car that isn't going to see the drag strip, and has canyon carving characteristics, I feel that anything more than that will just get me killed. With 300 crank, we're looking at power-to-weight ratios in the Lotus Elise/Porsche Cayman neighborhood. Yeah, it's nowhere near the ratios of muscle cars that rip up drag strips, but again, that's not my thing.

I'm one of those that have always said "It's a great car, but if it just had a wee bit more power, it'd be perfect!"

That said, I'm still strongly in the SC camp because of the smoother power delivery. I've driven turbos for most of my life and while I get a kick out of the boost kicking in, I'm at that stage in my life where I just simply prefer things a bit smoother. I know you said you understand this reasoning and there's no reason to try and justify it further, but that's just the bottomline for me.

Honestly, when it comes down to it, there aren't many other SC kits to pick from, so even though you're coming at this from a TC with lots of power vs SC with mediocre power, I think the real question is "If another SC Kit came out with say 350-400HP, would you still consider the Vortech kit in its current form?"

[Opposed]

Originally Posted by 2forme

You can have similar problems with SC kits as well. The vortech needs it's oil changed every 7500 miles, and if it starts to leak (which I've seen a vortech do)... well... then a rebuild is probably necessary. My other car is turboed with 230k on it. Never had a problem with the turbo or parts associated with it.

I also believe the AVO kit is more bolt on than this kit. Only one plastic piece is required to be modified, where the Vortech kit apparently requires a bit more (bumper plastics, alternator bracket, wiring harness etc).

Not trying to start a turbo vs sc or AVO vs Vortech, but the issues you listed aren't relegated to just turbos. SC's can have oil issues and boost leak issues as well.

You are correct, but I was just stating my own personal issues. It still does not mean I am completely sold on going the SC route this time. But for some reason, I am very attracted to this Vortech kit.

[PhastekSport]

We can scratch the alternator tilt bracket from the list.

The silver portion shows the area that is different.

These were sent overnight from Vortech.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2

[Calum]

@Sportsguy83 I'm still not decided. The easy of installation of the sc kits is very nice, I'd really like to not have to permanently change anything, or atleast as little as possible. I'm looking for about 250-275 whp on 91 octane, with a fairly flat torque curve. So far it doesn't look like I'll get that from any of the SC kits. I'm starting to look at the AVO stage 2 kit, but results and pricing have been ambiguous. On one hand, I'm kinda glad life kicked my ass recently and I had to use the money I had set aside for FI. This will give me more time watch product development.

[jadewbj]

The reason I like this option is because I like the more natural power of the supercharger. It is tough for me to see because the dyno's are different for the AVO and the Vortech but it looks like the vortech has slightly more down low power in the power range that is most used on the street.

[Draco-REX]

Originally Posted by Sportsguy83

This is a legitimate question I have. I don't want to bash, don't want to throw dirt at the thread. I know some people like everything about Superchargers and like the kit just because it is a SC (and that's fine!!). Some people just like the SC whine too much, others hate Turbos. I can understand all of those!!! I COMPLETELY understand people who want or NEED CARB certification and understand their excitement.

Anyone that falls under the description above does not need to answer, I understand where you are coming from.

This questions is for people who can choose anyone of the options available (not limited to this options because of CARB). For all other people please see question below.

Honestly and genuinely I would like to know, why are you impressed with 249 WHP and 180 WTQ @ 9 psi (considering other kits are pushing more)?

Please not a flame war, not a TC vs. SC, I genuinely want to hear from you guys why are those numbers impressive and/or why would those numbers make you choose this kit over the other options.

I'm interested in a supercharger instead of a turbo charger for this car for one primary reason (and a few secondarry): Transisional response; how the power is delivered when feathering (going on-off-on) the throttle. The balance of this chassis deserves a very responsive power delivery, in my opinion. Most turbo kits will loose a lot of pressure when feathering the throttle and take a moment to re-charge. Superchargers, due to their RPM-dependant nature, take less time to re-pressurize the intake.

The reason why this is important to me is because I use this car for AutoX and "canyon carving". So I often have to feather the throttle to balance the car in a corner. With a turbo car, I end up dumping pressure and my corner exit suffers. But in this car, even with it's moderate power, I can get great corner exits because the power is always available. I want to compliment that nature of this car, not change it.

You can actually get similar response from a turbo. But that requires an anti-lag tune which impacts turbo reliability. And that's not a compromise I wish to make.

Now, I really want the Innovate twin-screw because a Positive Displacement blower is even more responsive than a centrifugal on like the Vortec. But since every day the Innovate charger looks more and more like vaporware, I'm looking at the Vortec now.

[Visconti]

Originally Posted by Brian@Vortech

The new numbers on our complete system are 294HP/210TQ @ 9psi (Flywheel HP/TQ). This is the setup we have already applied for, and are pursuing CARB legality with. Obviously tuners like Perrin and Visconti are both able to provide Tuner Kit packages with higher numbers for other supporting mods or higher boost or higher redline configurations. We have seen numbers eclipsing 300RWHP from them, but in-house we have not tried pushing the limits beyond the 9psi setup on an otherwise stock vehicle on 91 octane fuel.

Thanks Brian.

New kit is pretty awesome

[ft_sjo]

How confident are you Vortech/Perrin/Visconti that 300whp is possible with 98RON fuel, with an otherwise stock car apart from cat-back exhaust?

[Adeets]

Originally Posted by industrial

What does that translate to in volts? Because that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me and I've been running wires and chasig electrical ghosts in aircraft for about 20 years. Solder joints is what we saw before modern gold plated crimp style pins and cannon plugs. Those work just fine for miles of wire on military planes...I'm sure it'd be fine for a low voltage Maf signal over a few feet.

The more you know:

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-gainloss.htm

[industrial]

Originally Posted by Adeets

The more you know:

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-gainloss.htm

So you are saying you'll lose 1 volt going through a single connector? You realize that maf signals range from about 1-5 volts on a normal subaru? So you are insinulating that adding one connector will cause a 20% loss in signal? I hope you aren't serious. The fact that you aren't even mentioning amperage or frequency or the type of voltage we are even talking about makes me think you have no idea what you're talking about...

@Sportsguy83
I think the greatest appeal of this kit now is that it seems to make a solid amount of power (250 @9psi, 300 @13psi) while being end user installable for most people. If more serious NA parts (IM, cams) don't show up by the end of the year, I might have to seriously consider this kit verses the AVO/FBM kit. The only reason I might go this way is ease of install. I still think at the end of the day, the AVO kit offers better value and a more throughly tested product at this time. I'd really love to drive both though.

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by Draco-REX

I'm interested in a supercharger instead of a turbo charger for this car for one primary reason (and a few secondarry): Transisional response; how the power is delivered when feathering (going on-off-on) the throttle. The balance of this chassis deserves a very responsive power delivery, in my opinion. Most turbo kits will loose a lot of pressure when feathering the throttle and take a moment to re-charge. Superchargers, due to their RPM-dependant nature, take less time to re-pressurize the intake.

The reason why this is important to me is because I use this car for AutoX and "canyon carving". So I often have to feather the throttle to balance the car in a corner. With a turbo car, I end up dumping pressure and my corner exit suffers. But in this car, even with it's moderate power, I can get great corner exits because the power is always available. I want to compliment that nature of this car, not change it.

You can actually get similar response from a turbo. But that requires an anti-lag tune which impacts turbo reliability. And that's not a compromise I wish to make.

Now, I really want the Innovate twin-screw because a Positive Displacement blower is even more responsive than a centrifugal on like the Vortec. But since every day the Innovate charger looks more and more like vaporware, I'm looking at the Vortec now.

A smaller mid-frame or twin-entry (twin-scroll) turbocharger should have excellent transient response that you're looking for. Nothing like a supercharger or N/A though.

[Adeets]

Originally Posted by ft_sjo

Exactly this. Solder joints are more likely to fail than crimped ones in the long term. This is why works race teams and manufacturers don't use them wherever possible.

Come on Vortech, sort out an extension harness, it's not rocket science. Just put a tender out to some local loom firms.

http://www.stevemeadedesigns.com/boa...lder-vs-crimp/

To sum it up, if you know what your doing (im a registered 2m tech) solder will always be better, if you don't, crimp, Toyota Uses crimping because its the cheaper faster way, any time you crimp your creating micro fractures, like so many of your posts I've read, once again your reasoning is flawed.