GR 86: Orders /Reservation /Waitlist Chat

[Robertw]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

The reasonable dealers "non refundable" deposits only apply if the car arrives and then you don't take it. They are fully refundable if you set a time limit and no car shows up in that period.
The whole idea is to try to get cars to people that are serious about buying one THERE not running around wasting dealers time trying to order cars from everybody hoping to get one faster.

It’s unclear if you’re not fully understanding the situation, or simply being willfully ignorant because you chose a position to defend dealerships and that’s your hill to die on now.

To explain, when putting a deposit down you submit a build sheet for the car you want, fill out a credit card authorization form to run your card for the deposit, and more often than not fill out paperwork to have your credit report run. There is no paperwork involved regarding a time limit for how quickly the dealership will get you your car.

What actually happens is you put your deposit down for the car you want, let’s say a red premium manual, the dealership tells you 4-6 months, month 8 comes around and a white base manual arrives. The dealership offers you the car, you can A. Take it, or B. Pass on it. By passing on it, you wait for another allocation, the dealership does not offer to refund your deposit. In their opinion they got you a car, you passed on it. You can walk away, but they keep your deposit. The dealership is under no obligation to get you the exact car you want, because they don’t decide what cars they get. They know this and are insisting on taking non refundable deposits, knowing once they have your deposit, they can do with you what they want.

Consumers are putting deposits down with multiple dealerships because they want a specific spec’d car. This is the only way to get the exact car you want or dumb luck. Toyota created this situation, not consumers. Don’t get it twisted. It’s Toyotas allocation lottery system vs Subarus build to order system.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Robertw

It’s unclear if you’re not fully understanding the situation, or simply being willfully ignorant because you chose a position to defend dealerships and that’s your hill to die on now.

To explain, when putting a deposit down you submit a build sheet for the car you want, fill out a credit card authorization form to run your card for the deposit, and more often than not fill out paperwork to have your credit report run. There is no paperwork involved regarding a time limit for how quickly the dealership will get you your car.

What actually happens is you put your deposit down for the car you want, let’s say a red premium manual, the dealership tells you 4-6 months, month 8 comes around and a white base manual arrives. The dealership offers you the car, you can A. Take it, or B. Pass on it. By passing on it, you wait for another allocation, the dealership does not offer to refund your deposit. In their opinion they got you a car, you passed on it. You can walk away, but they keep your deposit. The dealership is under no obligation to get you the exact car you want, because they don’t decide what cars they get. They know this and are insisting on taking non refundable deposits, knowing once they have your deposit, they can do with you what they want.

Consumers are putting deposits down with multiple dealerships because they want a specific spec’d car. This is the only way to get the exact car you want or dumb luck. Toyota created this situation, not consumers. Don’t get it twisted. It’s Toyotas allocation lottery system vs Subarus build to order system.

I fully understand the methodology.
I did exactly this process to order my Hakone.
I however did not go to several dealers order one and put down a non refundable deposit hoping one would get it faster than the other.
I also was smart enough to get in WRITING that if they could not get one within 6 months my non refundable deposit would be refunded.
They got one, the deposit went against the price and all was good.

To be clear I am not defending the dealer nor the buyer here. If somebody wants to put down deposits on several orders that is their call and reasonable.
At the same time dealers wanting to protect their sale by insuring that when they get the car in the buyer actually takes it is also reasonable.

[Robertw]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

At the same time dealers wanting to protect their sale by insuring that when they get the car in the buyer actually takes it is also reasonable.

Again, there are more buyers than cars. This is not the same market as 4-5 years ago. The cars will never sit on the lot if a buyer backs out, and that goes for every single segment of vehicle in the current market, the GR86 having more buyers waiting than cars available by orders of magnitude.

Your argument makes absolutely no sense in todays market. Please stop.

[BioRebel]

Originally Posted by Robertw

It’s unclear if you’re not fully understanding the situation, or simply being willfully ignorant because you chose a position to defend dealerships and that’s your hill to die on now.

To explain, when putting a deposit down you submit a build sheet for the car you want, fill out a credit card authorization form to run your card for the deposit, and more often than not fill out paperwork to have your credit report run. There is no paperwork involved regarding a time limit for how quickly the dealership will get you your car.

What actually happens is you put your deposit down for the car you want, let’s say a red premium manual, the dealership tells you 4-6 months, month 8 comes around and a white base manual arrives. The dealership offers you the car, you can A. Take it, or B. Pass on it. By passing on it, you wait for another allocation, the dealership does not offer to refund your deposit. In their opinion they got you a car, you passed on it. You can walk away, but they keep your deposit. The dealership is under no obligation to get you the exact car you want, because they don’t decide what cars they get. They know this and are insisting on taking non refundable deposits, knowing once they have your deposit, they can do with you what they want.

Consumers are putting deposits down with multiple dealerships because they want a specific spec’d car. This is the only way to get the exact car you want or dumb luck. Toyota created this situation, not consumers. Don’t get it twisted. It’s Toyotas allocation lottery system vs Subarus build to order system.

Funny enough this is why I went with the BRZ instead of the 86. And I imagine the hate for Toyotas allocation system is going to grow once people try to get their hands on the GR Corolla. Or when they try to get a manual Supra.
I knew something was weird with their process when I saw so many automatic GR86's out there on lots but not a manual in sight.


Either way, Subaru accepted my order for a sapphire blue with manual transmission and short throw! Gonna be fun having this thing and then turning my 2010 mini cooper s into a track car.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Robertw

Again, there are more buyers than cars. This is not the same market as 4-5 years ago. The cars will never sit on the lot if a buyer backs out, and that goes for every single segment of vehicle in the current market, the GR86 having more buyers waiting than cars available by orders of magnitude.

Your argument makes absolutely no sense in todays market. Please stop.

Makes perfect sense. You just don't want to hear it. Especially in this market where one person is claiming several cars. Doesn't matter if they will sell anyway.

Mine was one of 35 brought into the country and they didn't build them anymore. You don't get more restricted than that.

As you said EVERY car right now (well other than Ram trucks) have more buyers than cars right now. My wife has been waiting for an Ascent for 3 months. We did not go to several dealers and leave a deposit hoping one would get it quicker.

The dispute here is about the supposedly "non refundable" deposits not how hard it is to get cars or how easily they will sell. The deposits can totally be refundable if people just take the simple precaution of getting conditions documented.
You are really adding scope creep to the discussion in your desperate attempt to tell me I am wrong.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Robertw

Consumers are putting deposits down with multiple dealerships because they want a specific spec’d car. This is the only way to get the exact car you want or dumb luck. Toyota created this situation, not consumers. Don’t get it twisted. It’s Toyotas allocation lottery system vs Subarus build to order system.

If consumers are putting down multiple nonrefundable deposits down on the car, that's on them. If the consumer is going to one dealership and putting down a nonrefundable deposit, that is also on them if they choose not to exercise it. No one is forcing the consumer into that situation, it is not like it's a Toyota corporate wide policy, there are always alternatives.

Ultimately, I would never put a nonrefundable deposit on anything I haven't actually laid eyes, or aren't 100% sure I was going to buy.

Long term though, if car sales continue to move toward the order now, delivery later model I agree Toyota will have to change their system to match. If I'm going to have to order a car, rather than select one, then I expect to get the exact car I order, not a reasonable facsimile.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by BioRebel

Funny enough this is why I went with the BRZ instead of the 86. And I imagine the hate for Toyotas allocation system is going to grow once people try to get their hands on the GR Corolla. Or when they try to get a manual Supra.
I knew something was weird with their process when I saw so many automatic GR86's out there on lots but not a manual in sight.


Either way, Subaru accepted my order for a sapphire blue with manual transmission and short throw! Gonna be fun having this thing and then turning my 2010 mini cooper s into a track car.

No different than any other manufacturers issues when it is a high demand deliberate low production specialty vehicle. There were fistfights over ordering Hellcats when they were first announced.

The biggest issue with the GR86 isn't the ordering system but the unplanned low production numbers. In a "normal" year they would have had enough made to go around already. Unfortunately this car was released in one of the worst years in the history of the industry.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

If consumers are putting down multiple nonrefundable deposits down on the car, that's on them. If the consumer is going to one dealership and putting down a nonrefundable deposit, that is also on them if they choose not to exercise it. No one is forcing the consumer into that situation, it is not like it's a Toyota corporate wide policy, there are always alternatives.

Ultimately, I would never put a nonrefundable deposit on anything I haven't actually laid eyes, or aren't 100% sure I was going to buy.

Long term though, if car sales continue to move toward the order now, delivery later model I agree Toyota will have to change their system to match. If I'm going to have to order a car, rather than select one, then I expect to get the exact car I order, not a reasonable facsimile.

Toyota Canada is already headed down this road. You can actually order any model to your specs same as Subaru. They also have a really robust inter dealer swap system so if they don't have it on the lot they can usually get one quick.

EXCEPT the GR86. This is probably because they don't actually build the car and the order system between them and Subaru may simply not be set up to special order anything.

[BioRebel]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

No different than any other manufacturers issues when it is a high demand deliberate low production specialty vehicle. There were fistfights over ordering Hellcats when they were first announced.

The biggest issue with the GR86 isn't the ordering system but the unplanned low production numbers. In a "normal" year they would have had enough made to go around already. Unfortunately this car was released in one of the worst years in the history of the industry.

This article sums up the issue nicely with a story about someone still waiting on a GR86 order
https://jalopnik.com/you-might-not-g...lla-1848804894


By just making stuff and distributing it based on some formula they're only making the problem worse. And don't get me started on dealer markups.

[Robertw]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

The dispute here is about the supposedly "non refundable" deposits not how hard it is to get cars or how easily they will sell. The deposits can totally be refundable if people just take the simple precaution of getting conditions documented.
You are really adding scope creep to the discussion in your desperate attempt to tell me I am wrong.

You’ve repeatedly made the argument that the reason for non refundable deposits is so that dealerships have a guaranteed buyer to sell the car to, I only mentioned the market conditions to counter your point, there are more buyers than cars, a buyer backing out DOES NOT MATTER. The car will be gone in a moments notice.

I’ve also said, repeatedly, it’s on the buyers to understand what they’re signing. Folks please read. That does not change my opinion though, that non refundable deposits are a scam. When I called them a scam is when the dealer white knights showed up, and started this debate.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by BioRebel

This article sums up the issue nicely with a story about someone still waiting on a GR86 order
https://jalopnik.com/you-might-not-g...lla-1848804894


By just making stuff and distributing it based on some formula they're only making the problem worse. And don't get me started on dealer markups.

It isn't just a Toyota thing. Low volume specialty cars have never been made in quantities that meant everybody could get one the day they came out. This will never change. It is sometimes even the scarcity that makes them desirable.
As much as dealer markups suck they are a business and have a product that people are willing to pay extra for. As long as people continue to pay that extra they will charge it.
If you are selling your car and somebody says they will give you $5,000 more than it is worth are you going to say no?

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Robertw

You’ve repeatedly made the argument that the reason for non refundable deposits is so that dealerships have a guaranteed buyer to sell the car to, I only mentioned the market conditions to counter your point, there are more buyers than cars, a buyer backing out DOES NOT MATTER. The car will be gone in a moments notice.

I’ve also said, repeatedly, it’s on the buyers to understand what they’re singing. Folks please read. That does not change my opinion though, that non refundable deposits are a scam. When I called them a scam is when the dealer white knights showed up, and started this debate.

Do you work for free? If your boss said "I will give you a $1,000 bonus if you have this done by this date" and then comes back and says "I know you did it on time but Fred finished it yesterday so no bonus for you" would you be good with that?
Dealerships are a business and want to ensure they stay that way not spend time working on deals that are not going to happen. If people order a product they should be prepared to follow through.

[racingfool]

Originally Posted by Robertw

non refundable deposits are a scam

If the exact spec you asked for shows up in the time agreed to, non refundable?

Otherwise it is refundable?

Seems fair.

[BioRebel]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

It isn't just a Toyota thing. Low volume specialty cars have never been made in quantities that meant everybody could get one the day they came out. This will never change. It is sometimes even the scarcity that makes them desirable.
As much as dealer markups suck they are a business and have a product that people are willing to pay extra for. As long as people continue to pay that extra they will charge it.
If you are selling your car and somebody says they will give you $5,000 more than it is worth are you going to say no?

1. It is a toyota thing, they don't take factory orders which throws fuel onto the fire you're describing. If they just took factory orders like Subaru then maybe people wouldn't be placing orders at every dealer hoping the gachapon distribution system gives them the one they want (or one at all)

2. If I give a dealer money up front for a car to be sold to me @ MSRP then we've entered a deal and they should honor that deal. And if they jack up the price when the car comes in then I should be able to get my full deposit back. PERIOD.