Full throttle Electric Supercharger Build Thread

[MikeW]

Hg,

I am far less of an expert than you, and I am really only trying to encourage an expert to explain whether my intuition is on track.

Yeah, I have literally never modified a car apart from switching to synthetic oil so whatever numbers I toss out were likely provided by other internet experts - maybe with less experience than me... But I did assume that the car was tuned to get the 20-30 hp gain out of the mods. Are you saying that the difference between power gains between a tuned stock car and a tuned modded car would be 10-15 hp for post combustion bolt ons?

[MikeW]

What is certain is that manifolds and pipe mods will change the performance/nature of your engine with ECS versus a stock setup. Whether that will be a good thing, bad thing, or indifferent is the question. Given these unknowns I would think anyone seriously considering this system should postpone any mods. If people have already spent money on mods than I would wait for data to demonstrate buying this ECS will be worthwhile and in fact not screw up the work you have already paid for.

There appears to be an assumption in many comments that this system can only be benefitted or compliment other NA performance mods, but this has not been proved and might actually be incompatible with some.

[HunterGreene]

Originally Posted by MikeW

Hg,

I am far less of an expert than you, and I am really only trying to encourage an expert to explain whether my intuition is on track.

Yeah, I have literally never modified a car apart from switching to synthetic oil so whatever numbers I toss out were likely provided by other internet experts - maybe with less experience than me... But I did assume that the car was tuned to get the 20-30 hp gain out of the mods. Are you saying that the difference between power gains between a tuned stock car and a tuned modded car would be 10-15 hp for post combustion bolt ons?

I get most of my info from the same realm you do, the best you can do is be skeptical and research claims others have made.

And to answer your question, I am referring to the difference between a car that is going from stock to modified without a tune. Modded/tuned and modded/untuned could vary wildly depending on the car.

[Mobius357]

The vortech system makes more power adding exhaust and header, notably in the "dip" area that is still has and the very top end http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47101 It takes a certain amount of energy to push exhaust gasses out, reducing restriction should still see a gain. I wouldn't expect to see exhaust gains to stack linearly, but there should be some gain. Don't forget about the driving enjoyment factor of a nice sounding exhaust, that's worth more than a few ponies.

[bfrank1972]

Originally Posted by MikeW

bf, I have not seen the compressor map and I don't think that is something they wish to make public since it would make it easier to DIY. However, I believe the blower will work to maintain a specific - fixed rpm. The more static pressure in the system the harder it works, but it should not exceed the cfm rating. It could be variable speed but I have seen no evidence of that.

I understand what you're saying now, and there may indeed be something to it for sure - I'm not so sure it's as simple as saying we'll see diminishing returns to a 'fixed point' at or near 6500 rpm, but my intuition agrees that if you won't see the same % gains at 6500 on an ESC car vs. an NA car. Then again, who knows. You can't beat empirical data.

[MikeW]

I found some numbers up front in the thread. The compressor has a max flow rate of 400 cfm at 50,000 rpm. This is the most air it can move. The boxer 2.0 L naturally sucks in around 423 cfm at 6,000 rpm. This could explain why we see the ESC hp/tq advantage start to narrow around 6,000 rpm, and power levels flatten shortly after.

[MikeW]

So try this:

If flow increases proportional to hp than we could predict where the new peak will appear in the engine power curve with the increased power produced by post combustion mods equalling 15 hp. We will assume that the hp gain from the ESC on a stock system is 60 hp. We will also assume that our compressor is defeated by natural engine flow at 6500 rpm under the stock ESC system.

15/60 = Xcfm/6500 ---> 1,625

So this suggests that the new hp peak will arrive 25% sooner than on the ESC stock system, which equates to 4875 rpm (6500 - 1625).


Based on dyno results we know that 4875 rpm = 168ish hp with ESC stock. Don't know what it would be with mods or mods and ESC....etc.

I suppose we could assume it would be around max of 201hp, and things would just limp along to redline from that point. I guess we would be dropping to below 2 psi at this pint as well, so that curve is much steeper now.

unlikely the peak would be 25% early since the gains achieved by the ESC and other mods will not be additive. More likely it will be similar to the Vortec plot, where the two sort of cancel each other out and smooth the curve.

[fenton]

Originally Posted by MikeW

So try this:

If flow increases proportional to hp than we could predict where the new peak will appear in the engine power curve with the increased power produced by post combustion mods equalling 15 hp. We will assume that the hp gain from the ESC on a stock system is 60 hp. We will also assume that our compressor is defeated by natural engine flow at 6500 rpm under the stock ESC system.

15/60 = Xcfm/6500 ---> 1,625

So this suggests that the new hp peak will arrive 25% sooner than on the ESC stock system, which equates to 4875 rpm (6500 - 1625).


Based on dyno results we know that 4875 rpm = 168ish hp with ESC stock. Don't know what it would be with mods or mods and ESC....etc.

I suppose we could assume it would be around max of 201hp, and things would just limp along to redline from that point. I guess we would be dropping to below 2 psi at this pint as well, so that curve is much steeper now.

unlikely the peak would be 25% early since the gains achieved by the ESC and other mods will not be additive. More likely it will be similar to the Vortec plot, where the two sort of cancel each other out and smooth the curve.

This is pretty much true for any car mod. You can't just add them all up to get your HP. Bottom line is exhaust will help however small it may be. A header will help by tuning for cam timing and overall increase in ignition timing.

PS with the experimental compressor I just got last week load on the system has increased from 3.5kw to 4.5 kW and we are holding about a half a pound more at redline

Graph to come soon!

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[fenton]

Also note the experimental compressor makes peak power at 7000 rpm instead of 6750 like the standard one.

If you want to see examples of cars with exhaust and ESC refer to the first page. I know butang has SRT header back exahsut but he also asked for a very safe base tune that was rich and didn't have much timing. I on the other hand have more aggressive timing and fuelling.

I think thatruths car has a Perrin exhaust but I'm not sure. He can update with his mods. He also has a Perrin intake

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[fenton]

The exhaust modded cars hold their peak power to redline whereas my stock exhaust car seems to drop off a bit after peak

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[Thatruth2001]

Originally Posted by fenton

Also note the experimental compressor makes peak power at 7000 rpm instead of 6750 like the standard one.

If you want to see examples of cars with exhaust and ESC refer to the first page. I know butang has SRT header back exahsut but he also asked for a very safe base tune that was rich and didn't have much timing. I on the other hand have more aggressive timing and fuelling.

I think thatruths car has a Perrin exhaust but I'm not sure. He can update with his mods. He also has a Perrin intake

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When my tune was completed the only exhaust mods were the nameless 2.5" over/down pipe combo with greddy sp elite exhaust. About 2 weeks ago I installed the perrin 3" system. Additionally I have a deposit on the nameless header to complete the exhaust.

[MikeW]

very nice, I'm staying tuned and will be patient!

[fenton]

Update time:

Rob has developed some new goodies for me to test. Please note these are experimental and the only ones in existence as of today. This new unit will require a retune in order to be 100 percent realized in the bottom end. There is enough boost down low to kick my tune into a load cell that was set richer on purpose. That's not to say it isn't drive able though ..... This thing hauls ass!

What we have below is a experimental compressor housing and new impeller design. These changes increase load quite dramatically from 3.5kw to 4.5kw. Inorder to coop with increased load Rob has created a new controller that is beefier and uses a bit more expensive components. This new controller runs DR very aggressively. It operates basically anywhere in the revrange and really helps you scoot along in the lower gears. My boost gauge usually reads -.3 to +.3 when drag reduction is pulsing... I will try to get a video of this later.

We have also opted to add an auxiliary battery to increase the size of the dump battery so please excuse the mess of wires as I haven't cleaned it up yet.

Please see attached graph (pulled from datalogs) showing how this new compressor affects boost!!










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[bfrank1972]

Wow, stepping it up guys - that's looking like ballpark 50% increase in boost in the upper RPM range.

I know this is a prototype system - how does recovery seem running at 4.5kw?

Originally Posted by fenton

Update time:

Rob has developed some new goodies for me to test. Please note these are experimental and the only ones in existence as of today. This new unit will require a retune in order to be 100 percent realized in the bottom end. There is enough boost down low to kick my tune into a load cell that was set richer on purpose. That's not to say it isn't drive able though ..... This thing hauls ass!

What we have below is a experimental compressor housing and new impeller design. These changes increase load quite dramatically from 3.5kw to 4.5kw. Inorder to coop with increased load Rob has created a new controller that is beefier and uses a bit more expensive components. This new controller runs DR very aggressively. It operates basically anywhere in the revrange and really helps you scoot along in the lower gears. My boost gauge usually reads -.3 to +.3 when drag reduction is pulsing... I will try to get a video of this later.

We have also opted to add an auxiliary battery to increase the size of the dump battery so please excuse the mess of wires as I haven't cleaned it up yet.

Please see attached graph (pulled from datalogs) showing how this new compressor affects boost!!










Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4