Is weight no longer an issue in sports cars?

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I’m sure the understeer is there intentionally to limit driver error. With a short wheelbase and HP/kg comparable to many super/hypercars/superbikes, it could be a deathtrap with a neutral setup. It probably wouldn’t be hard to alter toe angles or other suspension components to get the feel someone desires. The Lotus is a more powerful, harder suspension’ed Miata. The Atom is like gutting a NA Miata then adding an LT4/LS9.

i dont think the understeer going into corners has much to do with hp/kg on account of youre using you dont use too much power going in. coming out it does get sideways so i disagree with what youre saying. i also have owned 4 miatas and now have an elise. they arent really comparable. id say the miata and a corvette have much more in common than a miata and a elise.

[TommyW]

Originally Posted by Tokay444

Putting the engine in the wrong place makes for a very ill handling automobile.
A deficiency Porsche has been dealing with since they refused to admit they made the wrong decision on where to put the engine, to the extent of literally slowing down lesser models, so that that their "King" can keep its crown.

Once they got things sorted out the platform worked well if the driver understood how to drive the car properly. There are nuances in handling just as in other cars. There are positives and negatives about the handling however a driver in a fairly modern 911 will be very fast around a racetrack if they understand the strengths and limitations..

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i dont think the understeer going into corners has much to do with hp/kg on account of youre using you dont use too much power going in. coming out it does get sideways so i disagree with what youre saying. i also have owned 4 miatas and now have an elise. they arent really comparable. id say the miata and a corvette have much more in common than a miata and a elise.

What I’m saying is that RWD cars tend to oversteer by losing traction in the rear. This can be a natural property of the setup and suspension or throttle application. Inducing oversteer with the accelerator is obviously easier or proportional to hp/kg.

Some cars may be setup to “steer with the pedal” with understeer as the default behavior, but oversteer with throttle application. The 86 is an example of this. Oversteer is easy to correct by letting off the gas, but not as much if the car always wants to understeer or even is neutral. Watch reviews of high powered vehicles and you will notice understeer (sometimes even too much understeer in the reviewer’s opinion) is prevalent, and it is probably designed that way:

Skip to 7:00
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7Azl-drqMk&&start=420[/ame]

The Miata and Elise are on the same 90” wheelbase, whereas the Corvette is on a 106” wheelbase. The short wheelbase lends itself to less rotational inertia meaning it will change directions faster and easier. Add tons of power with a twitchy throttle to a short wheelbase car then that can also be a recipe for oversteer.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

What I’m saying is that RWD cars tend to oversteer by losing traction in the rear. This can be a natural property of the setup and suspension or throttle application. Inducing oversteer with the accelerator is obviously easier or proportional to hp/kg.

Some cars may be setup to “steer with the pedal” with understeer as the default behavior, but oversteer with throttle application. The 86 is an example of this. Oversteer is easy to correct by letting off the gas, but not as much if the car always wants to understeer or even is neutral. Watch reviews of high powered vehicles and you will notice understeer (sometimes even too much understeer in the reviewer’s opinion) is prevalent, and it is probably designed that way:

Skip to 7:00

The Miata and Elise are on the same 90” wheelbase, whereas the Corvette is on a 106” wheelbase. The short wheelbase lends itself to less rotational inertia meaning it will change directions faster and easier. Add tons of power with a twitchy throttle to a short wheelbase car then that can also be a recipe for oversteer.

I think you're giving Ariel and it's design team too much credit. Yeah it's still a bucket list car and I'm not trying to detract from that. It's just flawed. Whether it's love despite the flaws or because of it is beyond my experience. As far as the comparison between the elise and a miata, I'm going to trust my years of ownership over a few cherry picked stat off a spec sheet every time.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Some cars may be setup to “steer with the pedal” with understeer as the default behavior, but oversteer with throttle application. The 86 is an example of this. Oversteer is easy to correct by letting off the gas,

Oversteer is easy to INDUCE by letting off the gas.
Performance driving 101:
Getting ON the gas generally induces UNDERsteer.
Getting OFF the gas generally induces OVERsteer.

If you lift off the gas mid-corner near limits of adhesion, that will tend to point the car into the curve MORE. You have to modulate/feather the throttle and correct with countersteering. Getting on the gas in the same situation will push the car wide, away from the corner.

That's not to say that power-on oversteer isn't a thing. But not so much in a ~14 lb/hp FT86...

Countless drivers of particularly responsive rwd cars have found themselves in the weeds by lifting off the gas when they started to get a little oversteer.

[TommyW]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

. Oversteer is easy to correct by letting off the gas, .

Or inducing even more at the wrong time. Cars for the general public are generally designed with understeer as the first reaction of an inexperienced driver is to lift when things start going wrong and lifting corrects understeer however in most cases it just makes oversteer worse.

Everyone should seek out the biggest, unused parking lot they can find and wait for rain and go practice these drills of inducing under and oversteer and learning how to correct. It's the same in the dry but happens at a much slower speed in the wet.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by fatoni

I think you're giving Ariel and it's design team too much credit. Yeah it's still a bucket list car and I'm not trying to detract from that. It's just flawed. Whether it's love despite the flaws or because of it is beyond my experience. As far as the comparison between the elise and a miata, I'm going to trust my years of ownership over a few cherry picked stat off a spec sheet every time.

Either I’m giving them too much credit or you aren’t giving them enough:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zNPFcn3pAw&t=63s[/ame]


With that much power to weight on such a short wheelbase, understeer is going to be there by design, even if the RR setup may necessitate it.

As an Elise owner, I think you may find this quote ironic:

The Atom suspension setup was tuned by the engineers at Lotus. Edmunds "Inside Line" noted that "anyone who has driven a selection of Lotus-tuned cars, such as the Lotus Elise, the Aston Martin Vanquish and the Opel Speedster, will notice a common feel or signature, and it's replicated in the Atom."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariel_Atom

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Oversteer is easy to INDUCE by letting off the gas.
Performance driving 101:
Getting ON the gas generally induces UNDERsteer.
Getting OFF the gas generally induces OVERsteer.

That's not to say that power-on oversteer isn't a thing. But not so much in a ~14 lb/hp FT86...

I was referring to power-on oversteer, as it is seen in the Arial Atom Stig lap above. This was obvious when I said "losing traction in the rear". Either the use of power with grip or the suspension geometry is creating understeer, but then he uses more power to correct it or to gain oversteer by sliding/kicking the rear end.

Kinda like Chris Harris in this 86 video.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=romf-G6CZ7g[/ame]


http://racetrackdriving.com/driving-...ttle-steering/

Originally Posted by TommyW

Or inducing even more at the wrong time. Cars for the general public are generally designed with understeer as the first reaction of an inexperienced driver is to lift when things start going wrong and lifting corrects understeer however in most cases it just makes oversteer worse.

I said oversteer from tire slip throughout the whole post. Regain traction in that situation and the car straightens back to the default understeer, so in that sense, when I said to back off the gas to correct oversteer, I was correct.

http://racetrackdriving.com/driving-...ttle-steering/

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Either I’m giving them too much credit or you aren’t giving them enough:

With that much power to weight on such a short wheelbase, understeer is going to be there by design, even if the RR setup may necessitate it.

As an Elise owner, I think you may find this quote ironic:



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariel_Atom

I do think you're giving them too much credit and it's totally possible I'm not giving enough or at least it seems that way. I don't want to discredit the car. Ariel is a small company and lotus is a small company. It's taken porsche decades to get their rear engine stuff together as it is today and many (including myself) think the Cayman could be a better car. I'm not surprised that the quirks weren't tuned out with those limited resources and I imagine the flaws seen bigger and more immediate at 1300lbs than at 3000lbs.

[Ultramaroon]

Meh. If the lap times are there that's all that matters. Flaws = character. The fun is in learning the machine's personality. Can do that with an old Beetle just as easily as with an Atom.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by fatoni

I do think you're giving them too much credit and it's totally possible I'm not giving enough or at least it seems that way. I don't want to discredit the car. Ariel is a small company and lotus is a small company. It's taken porsche decades to get their rear engine stuff together as it is today and many (including myself) think the Cayman could be a better car. I'm not surprised that the quirks weren't tuned out with those limited resources and I imagine the flaws seen bigger and more immediate at 1300lbs than at 3000lbs.

And @Tokay444

Remember the Arial Atom is a transverse mid engine car. The engine is between the front and rear axles. Not exactly as mid as a Cayman, but far closer to it than the rear-mounted, inline 911. If it isn't a mid engine then neither was the original NSX.

Arial Atoms:

Transverse I4


https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2007-ariel-atom-2-3/

Transverse V8 Atom




NSX




911




Cayman

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Meh. If the lap times are there that's all that matters. Flaws = character. The fun is in learning the machine's personality. Can do that with an old Beetle just as easily as with an Atom.

i wouldnt deny that but i have never once heard people speaking that way regarding understeer pretty much ever. im sure its a surreal experience.

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

And @Tokay444

Remember the Arial Atom is a transverse mid engine car. The engine is between the front and rear axles. Not exactly as mid as a Cayman, but far closer to it than the rear-mounted, inline 911. If it isn't a mid engine then neither was the original NSX.

Arial Atoms:

Transverse I4


https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2007-ariel-atom-2-3/

Transverse V8 Atom




NSX




911




Cayman

honda has a few bucks more than ariel does to engineer things as well id imagine. when its all said and done, im just going to side with first and second hand experience by trusted voices over numbers on a spec sheet. to each their own.

[Ultramaroon]

MR-transverse>RR-transverse>MR-long>RR-long


Get the front-to-rear stickiness worked out and you have a decent platform. Maybe all that it takes to get the Atom to play nicely is to tinker with wheel widths.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Meh. If the lap times are there that's all that matters. Flaws = character. The fun is in learning the machine's personality. Can do that with an old Beetle just as easily as with an Atom.

Exactly!