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FR-S / BRZ vs.... Area to discuss the FR-S/BRZ against its competitors [NO STREET RACING]


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Old 03-26-2020, 03:58 PM   #15
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Thanks for the info. What is the wheels/tires setup?
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Old 03-26-2020, 04:26 PM   #16
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Thanks for the info. What is the wheels/tires setup?
Cayman: factory 18x8, 18x9 wheels with 225/40-18 front and either 255/40-18 or 245/40-18 rear Yokohama A052

BRZ PP: WedsSport TC105N 17x9 +35 with 245/40-17 RE71R (have also run 225/45-17 RE71R on factory wheels, and 235/40-17 NT01 on 949Racing 17x9 +40)
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Old 03-26-2020, 07:05 PM   #17
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Thanks, we have conversed before but do you think the cayman is faster than your s2000?
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Old 03-26-2020, 07:58 PM   #18
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Thanks, we have conversed before but do you think the cayman is faster than your s2000?
I never ran the S2000 on tires as sticky as the A052s I ran on the Cayman. I would guess that with similar mods and on similar tires it might be close but I'd put my money on the Cayman. 2.9 Cayman has a bit of a power/weight advantage, but with a broader powerband. It's also more driftable vs. AP1 S2000. I.e. you can drive it on the limit and not lose as much time when you occasionally go over...
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Old 03-26-2020, 10:37 PM   #19
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I instruct with the local Porsche Club (amongst others) and have plenty of time riding shotgun as well as a few laps at moderate pace behind the wheel of various Boxsters and Cayman. The Boxster/Cayman are the closest in driving feel to my BRZ (but obviously with more power and built to a higher price point). The biggest difference is that the mid-engine layout allows the Porsches to spin very quickly after they've passed the point of no return (they are more likely to spin but when they go they spin fast).

The non-S versions of the Porsches don't have enough extra power to really make them a big enough upgrade over an 86 to make it worthwhile to upgrade. The S versions are like a supercharged 86 and are very quick (a full class above the twins in the speed category). An S2000 is going to slot in just between the 86 and non-S Porsche (right on par with the first gen Boxsters it was contemporaneous with). The biggest drawback to the S2k's is that they've gone up in price and are only getting older. 100k mile examples in my area go for about $15k, which is the same price for a non-S Porsche that'll have about the same miles and be 5-10 years newer.

I'm doing over 30 trackdays a year in my BRZ with costs down below $150/day in consumables (including gas). An S2k would be close, but at nearly 20 years old all sorts of parts are bound to start failing. For a Porsche, you want to get a 987.2 "S" for the reliability, resale, and performance sweet spots. The initial purchase price is a bit steep but they're holding value well and relatively good on maintenance and consumables (for what I do, as long as nothing major breaks it'd be an extra $50/day to run one over my BRZ, or still almost $50/day cheaper than a Mustang GT and about $100/day cheaper than a C6/C7 Corvette).

The BRZ has enough space to fold the seats down and fit a set of tires and tools, which is nice and really helps out if you're going out of town. I'm only an hour away from both the tracks that I do nearly all my days at, so changing wheels and tires ahead of time wouldn't be too terrible but one more thing to consider.

I've always been a fan of the Cayman S, and that'll probably be my next car if the next gen 86 isn't great. The problem I've got is that I love my BRZ and have so much fun driving it at the track that it's hard to justify replacing it.
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Old 03-27-2020, 01:35 AM   #20
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I don't think "age" has anything to do with it really. Lighter-weight is more fun
I don't think there is much weight difference. A 718 Cayman with manual transmission weights 2944 lbs. and the closer spec'd BRZ tS '20 (big brakes, 18" wheels) weights 2833 lbs. So, the real difference is 111 lbs and there is a performance difference close to the 981S you drove. Porsche managed to add more power in every new model introduction and to keep weight the same or a bit lower, which is not that easy nowadays.
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Old 03-27-2020, 02:20 AM   #21
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I don't think there is much weight difference. A 718 Cayman with manual transmission weights 2944 lbs. and the closer spec'd BRZ tS '20 (big brakes, 18" wheels) weights 2833 lbs. So, the real difference is 111 lbs and there is a performance difference close to the 981S you drove. Porsche managed to add more power in every new model introduction and to keep weight the same or a bit lower, which is not that easy nowadays.
My limited 2014 BRZ with a full interior and at the time all the available options (my daily) weighs 2650 before I get in it, gotta remember the twins come with a spare that'll cut nearly 50lbs by tossing it and the tools out the car. How did they add over 100lbs to the tS?
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Old 03-27-2020, 03:13 AM   #22
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My limited 2014 BRZ with a full interior and at the time all the available options (my daily) weighs 2650 before I get in it, gotta remember the twins come with a spare that'll cut nearly 50lbs by tossing it and the tools out the car. How did they add over 100lbs to the tS?
Did you do any other weight reduction other than removing the spare wheel to get down to 2650?

The twins have been gaining some weight over the years. Factory numbers are:

2014 BRZ Limited - 2776 lbs
2020 BRZ Limited - 2798 lbs
2020 BRZ tS - 2833 lbs
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Old 03-27-2020, 03:31 AM   #23
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My limited 2014 BRZ with a full interior and at the time all the available options (my daily) weighs 2650 before I get in it, gotta remember the twins come with a spare that'll cut nearly 50lbs by tossing it and the tools out the car. How did they add over 100lbs to the tS?
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Did you do any other weight reduction other than removing the spare wheel to get down to 2650?

The twins have been gaining some weight over the years. Factory numbers are:

2014 BRZ Limited - 2776 lbs
2020 BRZ Limited - 2798 lbs
2020 BRZ tS - 2833 lbs
Yes. Our cars were constantly getting more weight almost every second year. We can argue that we can apply weight reduction and go to lighter brakes or forged wheels or whatever, but out of the factory this is what we get currently. Cost is a major reason, but somehow Porsche managed to offer more power and keep the weight down at the same price.
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Old 03-27-2020, 09:46 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by 14stu View Post
The Boxster/Cayman are the closest in driving feel to my BRZ (but obviously with more power and built to a higher price point). The biggest difference is that the mid-engine layout allows the Porsches to spin very quickly after they've passed the point of no return (they are more likely to spin but when they go they spin fast).
That was not my experience at all. I could hang the Cayman out right away, found it to be surprisingly driftable. My only off-course last year was holding a drift around turn 6 at New Hampshire Motor Speedway a bit too far for a bit too long, but still recovered quickly enough to go off into the gravel trap pointed forward. The car is pretty forgiving.

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The non-S versions of the Porsches don't have enough extra power to really make them a big enough upgrade over an 86 to make it worthwhile to upgrade.
If power and acceleration are drivers, there are other, better choices, but a non-S 987.2 is still quite a bit faster in a straight line vs. an 86... And it is a much faster car at most tracks, 3-4 seconds faster at Watkins Glen! That's a pretty big upgrade if performance is the metric. At the end of the straight at Palmer, I was 7mph up in the Cayman vs. BRZ. That's a LOT...

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I've always been a fan of the Cayman S, and that'll probably be my next car if the next gen 86 isn't great. The problem I've got is that I love my BRZ and have so much fun driving it at the track that it's hard to justify replacing it.
That is the OPPOSITE of a problem! Keep enjoying what ya got

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Old 03-27-2020, 09:57 AM   #25
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I don't think there is much weight difference.
There's a bit of a weight difference, but again, to me the BRZ *feels* a bit lighter than it's ~2800 lb., while Cayman *felt* a bit heavier than its ~3050 lb.

Quote:
A 718 Cayman with manual transmission weights 2944 lbs.
Never trust manufacturer data... 718 Cayman manual weighs at least 100 lb. more, this one weighed in at 3064 lb. https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...l-test-review/
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Old 03-27-2020, 12:09 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NLSP View Post
Did you do any other weight reduction other than removing the spare wheel to get down to 2650?

The twins have been gaining some weight over the years. Factory numbers are:

2014 BRZ Limited - 2776 lbs
2020 BRZ Limited - 2798 lbs
2020 BRZ tS - 2833 lbs
Removed the spare tire and tools (-35lbs or so), lightweight battery (-30lbs), AP Racing Sprint kit (-20lbs). My wheels are 17lbs each but with wider tires the combo ends up about the same as the stock setup.

Weighed the car on the official SCCA weigh-in scales for a ProSolo a couple of years ago, I had about half a tank of gas.
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Old 03-27-2020, 01:54 PM   #27
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Dan,

Do you recall the laptime ran at palmer with the base cayman? Counter or clockwise?
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Old 03-27-2020, 02:08 PM   #28
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Dan,

Do you recall the laptime ran at palmer with the base cayman? Counter or clockwise?
Clockwise. Best laps in 1:48s, 1:49.25 in the time trial. That was the August COMSCC
event
https://www.comscc.org/events/result...?id=2019-08-11
TT'd 1:51.41 with the BRZ in June
https://www.comscc.org/events/result...?id=2019-06-02

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