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Old 10-13-2019, 12:11 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by mswbrz View Post
So many peeps salty bout the Ace being heads above the rest ..... thanks again for the validation of me buying the right header/ tune for my Fi brz


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I'm not salty.

I do take a suppliers "findings" with a grain of salt though.

The ACE header, with it's EL design should see better performance over any UEL header in an NA application, because physics, as for boosted with the help of blow through, I'm not sure.

Boosted?, I haven't tested that, my AVO runs its UEL.

But talking NA, and supercharged, how much better than the decated OEM is the ACE though, and which ACE, as there are a few different choices.

Whilst the design of the ACE header is spot on, that's alot of money when we don't know the difference it gets to a decated OEM EL header designed by Subaru.

I acknowledge the compromise made to the length of the OEM secondaries due to requirement of the OEM cat.


https://www.counterspacegarage.com/a...0-brz-frs-gt86

$1700USD ( on sale) = $2500AUD = Alot of cash for unkown gain.

What's the difference when you compare red apples to green apples, the ACE vs the EL JDL 4:2:1 with a $100 overpipe (a 2.5" pipe is a 2.5" pipe) > https://www.counterspacegarage.com/jdl-421el-ft86

Cheers.
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Old 10-13-2019, 06:12 PM   #16
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I would like to see the ACE vs UEL catless vs OEM Decat (hammer and screwdriver).

Same car, same tuner (hopefully a good one), same dyno, same conditions, same fuel.

All on an NA engine where the pipe length, diameter, velocity, collector design and pulses really mean more in design than a boosted application where blow down is seen.

All by a independent place that doesn't sell aftermarket parts.

Disclaimer: I'm no expert, I just like fluid and thermal dynamics and their part in making power.

I would also like to see some traps and mph for each test.

From my experience there is generally a difference in claims when the tyres are on the blacktop.

Marketing is a magical thing.
You sound like a great volunteer to make this type of testing happen. Please let us know when you have all the data gathered up!
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Old 10-13-2019, 06:13 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by 86MLR View Post
I'm not salty.

I do take a suppliers "findings" with a grain of salt though.

The ACE header, with it's EL design should see better performance over any UEL header in an NA application, because physics, as for boosted with the help of blow through, I'm not sure.

Boosted?, I haven't tested that, my AVO runs its UEL.

But talking NA, and supercharged, how much better than the decated OEM is the ACE though, and which ACE, as there are a few different choices.

Whilst the design of the ACE header is spot on, that's alot of money when we don't know the difference it gets to a decated OEM EL header designed by Subaru.

I acknowledge the compromise made to the length of the OEM secondaries due to requirement of the OEM cat.


https://www.counterspacegarage.com/a...0-brz-frs-gt86

$1700USD ( on sale) = $2500AUD = Alot of cash for unkown gain.

What's the difference when you compare red apples to green apples, the ACE vs the EL JDL 4:2:1 with a $100 overpipe (a 2.5" pipe is a 2.5" pipe) > https://www.counterspacegarage.com/jdl-421el-ft86

Cheers.
Same thing. NA, the JDL 4-2-1 makes the same peak power as any catless header with an equally good tune. This is the result of the engine itself (the heads) being the limiting factor for flow up top. The Ace still makes more mid-range power and more area under the curve.

Likewise, because the engine is the limiting factor, most catless headers all make the same peak power NA, but when you compare AUC, the headers start really stratifying into different tiers, and when you add boost, the superior designs become really, REALLY obvious.
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Old 10-13-2019, 09:42 PM   #18
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You sound like a great volunteer to make this type of testing happen. Please let us know when you have all the data gathered up!
Nice deflect, I did play around with a decated OEM header vs a Tomei UEL, I put the decated OEM header back on, the only gain from the Tomei was noise.

But, I'm just a consumer playing around with a limited budget.

I'm not trying to sell something with power claims.

I would actually advise against an UEL header, but then again, I'm just a consumer not trying to sell something.

Manufacturers and suppliers are making claims in order to sell stuff.

I like when manufacturers and suppliers can back said claims with unbias, independent data.

Meh
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Old 10-14-2019, 03:20 AM   #19
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Nice deflect, I did play around with a decated OEM header vs a Tomei UEL, I put the decated OEM header back on, the only gain from the Tomei was noise.

But, I'm just a consumer playing around with a limited budget.

I'm not trying to sell something with power claims.

I would actually advise against an UEL header, but then again, I'm just a consumer not trying to sell something.

Manufacturers and suppliers are making claims in order to sell stuff.

I like when manufacturers and suppliers can back said claims with unbias, independent data.

Meh
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Originally Posted by 86MLR View Post
I'm not salty.

I do take a suppliers "findings" with a grain of salt though.

The ACE header, with it's EL design should see better performance over any UEL header in an NA application, because physics, as for boosted with the help of blow through, I'm not sure.

Boosted?, I haven't tested that, my AVO runs its UEL.

But talking NA, and supercharged, how much better than the decated OEM is the ACE though, and which ACE, as there are a few different choices.

Whilst the design of the ACE header is spot on, that's alot of money when we don't know the difference it gets to a decated OEM EL header designed by Subaru.

I acknowledge the compromise made to the length of the OEM secondaries due to requirement of the OEM cat.


https://www.counterspacegarage.com/a...0-brz-frs-gt86

$1700USD ( on sale) = $2500AUD = Alot of cash for unkown gain.

What's the difference when you compare red apples to green apples, the ACE vs the EL JDL 4:2:1 with a $100 overpipe (a 2.5" pipe is a 2.5" pipe) > https://www.counterspacegarage.com/jdl-421el-ft86

Cheers.


You're implying that suppliers are all inherently biased. Strangely enough, CSG sells the UEL header tested, as well as the Ace header. So, where's the bias? The UEL header has a larger margin.

You, the consumer, are unbiased.

That, is why I think you should supply the data!
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Old 10-14-2019, 04:18 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by CSG Mike View Post
You're implying that suppliers are all inherently biased. Strangely enough, CSG sells the UEL header tested, as well as the Ace header. So, where's the bias? The UEL header has a larger margin.

You, the consumer, are unbiased.

That, is why I think you should supply the data!
But why, I'm not selling anything.

And of course you sell the UEL header, your a supplier, there is a market, it would be financial suicide to not sell them.

You have said that your findings have found that a 4:2:1 ACE header is better than a UEL header, I agree 100%, any well designed EL header would, it's 101 header design, people should buy the ACE over any UEL header.

But

The question was how much better is the ACE over the JDL 4:2:1, why spend $500 extra?

Hell, how much better is the ACE and the JDL over a decated OEM header?

I'm not selling anything, I'm asking a supplier who is making a claim, I'm just asking questions that any consumer that wants to know what he gets for his money would ask.

It's up to the manufacturers and suppliers to prove what they say, not the consumer.

I'm not saying testing is easy or cheap, the ability to test one part against another, using the same base never is, but asking a consumer to do the testing? Yeah nah.

Anyways, it appears you have already done all the required testing anyway.

"CounterSpace Garage sells only the highest quality products torture tested under the harshest conditions available. Every product offered by CounterSpace Garage is tried, tested, and proven."

I'm pretty sure we are not on the same page so have fun at the track and good luck with your business.
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Old 10-14-2019, 12:17 PM   #21
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Rod breaking power is available without the Ace, but thanks for the data.
X hp using Ace and X hp with another header are not the same strain on the engine since Ace makes the difference through efficiency, better flow. If it was legal installing a catless header in NY, I would have installed the ACE header for sure and get some more power with increased engine reliability. Based on this data, it seems like there is 30hp extra untapped waiting, which is without increasing the boost and increasing the failure risk. Thank you, @CSG Mike!

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Old 10-14-2019, 01:42 PM   #22
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X hp using Ace and X hp with another header are not the same strain on the engine since Ace makes the difference through efficiency, better flow. If it was legal installing a catless header in NY, I would have installed the ACE header for sure and get some more power with increased engine reliability. Based on this data, it seems like there is 30hp extra untapped waiting, which is without increasing the boost and increasing the failure risk. Thank you, @CSG Mike!
If it is more torque via more area under the curve, but without more peak torque then I would agree, but it is not. Even then, low end torque can be worse on this platform. It doesn’t matter if the Ace does it with less heat and less restrictions, torque is what breaks rods. There might be less chances of preignition/detonation with the Ace header, but torque is torque.
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Old 10-14-2019, 02:40 PM   #23
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If it is more torque via more area under the curve, but without more peak torque then I would agree, but it is not. Even then, low end torque can be worse on this platform. It doesn’t matter if the Ace does it with less heat and less restrictions, torque is what breaks rods. There might be less chances of preignition/detonation with the Ace header, but torque is torque.
If the two engines with two different boost levels are giving the same torque, the one with higher boost is wasting part of that energy. And the wasted energy is wear/strain on the engine components. So out of two engines with equal boost, the engine with higher torque will not necessarily have higher wear/strain. Actually, a better flowing more efficient exhaust reduces the pressure level in the cylinder while increasing the torque which decreases the failure risk. It is more complicated than just looking at the area under the curve.
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Old 10-14-2019, 03:57 PM   #24
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Cylinder temperature and pressure over time break rods. It's not about psi or some vague concept of boost. Running a supercharger at a higher speed will leach more power, but it's not going to put massive strain on the engine, nothing like the strain of more cylinder pressure or temperature. More efficiency is a good thing, of course, and for the same WHP would likely mean lower temp, pressure, and fuel use. If you're running a stock engine, making a lot of power down low is a bad, bad idea. Where the stock breaking point is will vary by engine and tune.

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Old 10-14-2019, 04:11 PM   #25
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If the two engines with two different boost levels are giving the same torque, the one with higher boost is wasting part of that energy. And the wasted energy is wear/strain on the engine components. So out of two engines with equal boost, the engine with higher torque will not necessarily have higher wear/strain. Actually, a better flowing more efficient exhaust reduces the pressure level in the cylinder while increasing the torque which decreases the failure risk. It is more complicated than just looking at the area under the curve.
What jsimon7777 said.
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Old 10-14-2019, 05:21 PM   #26
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Cylinder temperature and pressure over time break rods. It's not about psi or some vague concept of boost.
Did you read what you wrote? Cylinder pressure is strongly affected by boost (along with ignition timing, exhaust system, compression, ...) and unit of boost is psi which happens to be a pressure unit. Boost is not a concept, it is a measured engine variable, go ahead put a gauge in your car ... it is also available with a cheap OBDII device. There is a MAP sensor to measure that "vague concept".
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Old 10-14-2019, 05:48 PM   #27
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Did you read what you wrote? Cylinder pressure is strongly affected by boost (along with ignition timing, exhaust system, compression, ...) and unit of boost is psi which happens to be a pressure unit. Boost is not a concept, it is a measured engine variable, go ahead put a gauge in your car ... it is also available with a cheap OBDII device. There is a MAP sensor to measure that "vague concept".
Yes, I read what you wrote. Intake air pressure is not the same as the amount of oxygen entering the cylinder. A better flowing header will reduce PSI for the same amount of oxygen entering the cylinder. Oxygen and gasoline combusting is what makes cylinder pressure, not PSI of the incoming air. Are you mixing up intake PSI for the actual amount of oxygen?
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Old 10-14-2019, 06:05 PM   #28
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Yes, I read what you wrote. Intake air pressure is not the same as the amount of oxygen entering the cylinder. A better flowing header will reduce PSI for the same amount of oxygen entering the cylinder. Oxygen and gasoline combusting is what makes cylinder pressure, not PSI of the incoming air. Are you mixing up intake PSI for the actual amount of oxygen?
- I wrote "did you read what you wrote
- equation is PV=nRT. And "Yes" increasing P (means pressure) increases n which is number of moles of gas (means amount of oxygen, 21% of air) for given T and V. BTW, R is gas constant
- but I never mentioned about oxygen above anyway
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