Suspension upgrades to improve ride

[StraightOuttaCanadaEh]

Originally Posted by Shark_Bait88

How many miles are on your car? None of those bushings should've improved ride quality from a comfort standpoint. All those stiffer bushings should increase NVH and harshness of the ride. I'd be more likely to bet that the "crashiness" you were experiencing is due to worn out OEM bushings. The coilovers are likely the largest contributor to a rougher ride, and as you noted the 18" wheels with lower profile tires will play a role as well. In order to increase ride quality you'd need to undue a lot of what you've done, which it doesn't sound like you want to do.

The coilovers and new wheels didn't make the ride worse. A tiny bit stiffer but SuperTom here has those Meisterr coilovers on his car and also remarked how the ride is pretty much the same as OEM. I always noted that the car was a bit like that from the start. It's only a year old so the oem bushings can't be worn out. Like I said above, the NVH did increase, but because the bushings eliminated the slack, the impacts aren't as jarring. Even my wife noticed it from the passenger seat.

[Stang70Fastback]

Originally Posted by StraightOuttaCanadaEh

It's only a year old so the oem bushings can't be worn out. Like I said above, the NVH did increase, but because the bushings eliminated the slack, the impacts aren't as jarring. Even my wife noticed it from the passenger seat.

So not to start an argument, as I obviously cannot tell you what YOU are feeling, but to most folks that is going to sound VERY odd. There should be no slack in OEM bushings either. Especially on a year-old vehicle. OEM bushings just have more flex/give to them than aftermarket bushings... which is literally for the express purpose of reducing NVH and softening jarring impacts. So what you are saying you experienced is kind of the opposite of what is supposed to happen. That's the whole reason plenty of people (such as myself) don't do aftermarket bushings. They tighten up the handling of the car by eliminating some extra movement between components, but at the expense of more jarring impacts, and more NVH. Also there is no way the switch to 18s didn't contribute noticeably to ride harshness. I'd know, as my summer wheels are 18s and my winter wheels (and autocross wheels) are 17s, and the 18s, while looking fantastic, are noticeably harsher across the road. Then again, some of that will be determined by the tire you run as well, and my summer tires are relatively stiff Michelin Pilot Super Sports.

I actually took a stock 2014 out for a test drive at the beginning of this year specifically to compare my ride quality to stock (I have KW V3 suspension), and was pleased to find that the overall ride was stock-like, even with the 18s. However, while the coilovers still did a great job of ironing out bumps in the road for a similar-to-OEM feel, the 18s, coupled with my camber plates, still mean that vibrations and small road imperfections are more noticeable. So the overall ride is similar to OEM, but with an increase in vibrations and "road noise" transmitted into the cabin.

So basically what I'm getting at is... you're weird. Lol. :P

[StraightOuttaCanadaEh]

Originally Posted by Stang70Fastback

So not to start an argument, as I obviously cannot tell you what YOU are feeling, but to most folks that is going to sound VERY odd. There should be no slack in OEM bushings either. Especially on a year-old vehicle. OEM bushings just have more flex/give to them than aftermarket bushings... which is literally for the express purpose of reducing NVH and softening jarring impacts. So what you are saying you experienced is kind of the opposite of what is supposed to happen. That's the whole reason plenty of people (such as myself) don't do aftermarket bushings. They tighten up the handling of the car by eliminating some extra movement between components, but at the expense of more jarring impacts, and more NVH. Also there is no way the switch to 18s didn't contribute noticeably to ride harshness. I'd know, as my summer wheels are 18s and my winter wheels (and autocross wheels) are 17s, and the 18s, while looking fantastic, are noticeably harsher across the road. Then again, some of that will be determined by the tire you run as well, and my summer tires are relatively stiff Michelin Pilot Super Sports.

I actually took a stock 2014 out for a test drive at the beginning of this year specifically to compare my ride quality to stock (I have KW V3 suspension), and was pleased to find that the overall ride was stock-like, even with the 18s. However, while the coilovers still did a great job of ironing out bumps in the road for a similar-to-OEM feel, the 18s, coupled with my camber plates, still mean that vibrations and small road imperfections are more noticeable. So the overall ride is similar to OEM, but with an increase in vibrations and "road noise" transmitted into the cabin.

So basically what I'm getting at is... you're weird. Lol. :P

Entirely possible that I have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm not as well versed in all the mechanical nitty gritty as you guys here, so it also could be that I'm explaining it wrong. But if you watch the whiteline video on the positive traction kit, you'll see that the subframe kinda deflects a lot. So the way I see it (and I could be seeing wrong), when you go over a bump, that impact is not instant, so you get the subframe slapping into the contact points, which then transfer the impact to the body and you get that jolt. Now that the whole thing is sandwiched together, the body moves as one, and I don't know if the impact is absorbed better that way or what, but I'm telling you it's a bit more supple. More noise and vibration, hell yeah, but over harsh bumps, it feels better. I was thinking of upgrading my coilovers at some point and maybe looking at the importance of them having good damping next time. Also maybe look for some with some rubber in the top hats like the OE pieces, so there's a bit of cushioning. Meisterr Zeta CRD isn't an entry level, but it's barely middle. I'd say like entry-mid. So totally possible that that's the culprit. I have the MPSS as well and run them at 34 psi cause 35 is a bit uncomfortable

[Stang70Fastback]

Originally Posted by StraightOuttaCanadaEh

...it also could be that I'm explaining it wrong... Now that the whole thing is sandwiched together, the body moves as one, and I don't know if the impact is absorbed better that way or what, but I'm telling you it's a bit more supple. More noise and vibration, hell yeah, but over harsh bumps, it feels better.

Okay, I get what you're saying now; you're just using the wrong words. Supple is absolutely NOT the right word to use, lol. What you are enjoying is that there is less slop, and that the whole suspension feels "TIGHTER," I think would be a better word. You prefer feeling the bumps more directly, and instantly, rather than feeling the suspension absorb the bumps, and the resulting "slop" associated with suspension components moving independently of each other. The car now feels more directly connected to the road. So you prefer a more direct feel. That's fine. Just the way you were describing it was that the car was more comfortable, which isn't quite right. It's more that the car is less comfortable, but more direct; more raw.

So, to answer your initial question with this in mind, I stick with my original suggestion. Sound deadening can help quiet down the interior, which will make the car feel a bit more comfortable, even if it doesn't directly change how it handles.

Beyond that, the things that you enjoy about your new setup are also things that lead to what you don't enjoy; impact harshness and vibration. It's hard to decouple the two. Other than getting softer-riding coilovers that help absorb impacts, there isn't much else you can do. That's the tradeoff you get for a more "visceral" driving experience. When you hit a bump, the tire is the first point of absorption. You've gone from 17s to 18s, so in that department you've made things worse. Then there is the suspension itself. You can try softer coilovers if yours are stiff. That will definitely help. You can also play with swaybars to try to further decouple the left and right wheels, which will help improve ride quality, but you're going to get more body roll. A little bit more roll might be acceptable to you depending on your use case. After that, impacts are transmitted through bushings to the body. Camber plates mean your suspension is bolted straight to the body, metal-to-metal, without any rubber in between. Depending on what camber you run, you might be able to revert to stock top hats front and/or rear to reduce the NVH. Beyond that, all you can do is add some sound deadening.

At the end of the day, you are trying to decouple two things that are inherently linked together. OEMs spend many millions of dollars trying to improve handling feel without decreasing ride comfort, and it is REALLY hard to do. The latest Aston Martin is getting dinged for that one, for example. It's a big part of why supercars have such fancy, and obscenely expensive, suspension components.

[StraightOuttaCanadaEh]

Originally Posted by Stang70Fastback

Okay, I get what you're saying now; you're just using the wrong words. Supple is absolutely NOT the right word to use, lol. What you are enjoying is that there is less slop, and that the whole suspension feels "TIGHTER," I think would be a better word. You prefer feeling the bumps more directly, and instantly, rather than feeling the suspension absorb the bumps, and the resulting "slop" associated with suspension components moving independently of each other. The car now feels more directly connected to the road. So you prefer a more direct feel. That's fine. Just the way you were describing it was that the car was more comfortable, which isn't quite right. It's more that the car is less comfortable, but more direct; more raw.

So, to answer your initial question with this in mind, I stick with my original suggestion. Sound deadening can help quiet down the interior, which will make the car feel a bit more comfortable, even if it doesn't directly change how it handles.

Beyond that, the things that you enjoy about your new setup are also things that lead to what you don't enjoy; impact harshness and vibration. It's hard to decouple the two. Other than getting softer-riding coilovers that help absorb impacts, there isn't much else you can do. That's the tradeoff you get for a more "visceral" driving experience. When you hit a bump, the tire is the first point of absorption. You've gone from 17s to 18s, so in that department you've made things worse. Then there is the suspension itself. You can try softer coilovers if yours are stiff. That will definitely help. You can also play with swaybars to try to further decouple the left and right wheels, which will help improve ride quality, but you're going to get more body roll. A little bit more roll might be acceptable to you depending on your use case. After that, impacts are transmitted through bushings to the body. Camber plates mean your suspension is bolted straight to the body, metal-to-metal, without any rubber in between. Depending on what camber you run, you might be able to revert to stock top hats front and/or rear to reduce the NVH. Beyond that, all you can do is add some sound deadening.

At the end of the day, you are trying to decouple two things that are inherently linked together. OEMs spend many millions of dollars trying to improve handling feel without decreasing ride comfort, and it is REALLY hard to do. The latest Aston Martin is getting dinged for that one, for example. It's a big part of why supercars have such fancy, and obscenely expensive, suspension components.

Thanks for the detailed reply. YES, "slop" is the word I was looking for. I was actually using it before but I guess it slipped from my brain. Definitely prefer the direct feel and don't mind the NVH at all. To me, the "racecar" charade is very desirable. I'm looking to get the Shrader rear seat delete kit so that'll take care of some of the noise. As for the top hats issue, how about something like this? I read the description, but with my limited knowledge, I'm only getting the gist of what all these parts do.

http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/fort...l#.W89MJ1VKii4

It sounds like it might help. What do you think?

As for sway bars, I really dislike roll, plus I hear they can make the car twitchy on the limit, which is scary to me and the #1 reason why I got rid of the OEM tires after a week of driving on them.

Also don't know what the heck these are but they look interesting.

http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/powe...l#.W89NYVVKii4

[Stang70Fastback]

Those bearing caps might be useful if that is one of the sounds you are experiencing. I don't have that issue with my coilovers, but I'm running Raceseng Camber plates which have pretty beefy bearings in them.

The other part you linked to provides holes for a rear brace that would go just above the rear seats. That brace might in theory help with any squeaks and rattles by strengthening the rear area of the body, but I don't know how much of an effect it really has on our cars. On my old Outback, a rear strut tower brace made a HUGE improvement to NVH by eliminating a lot of creaks and rattles. But that was on a 15-year-old station wagon with a tired body that I had put massive swaybars on, so there was a LOT of body flex - especially since wagons are an inherently less stiff structure.

[Leonardo]

Originally Posted by StraightOuttaCanadaEh

Thanks for the detailed reply. YES, "slop" is the word I was looking for. I was actually using it before but I guess it slipped from my brain. Definitely prefer the direct feel and don't mind the NVH at all. To me, the "racecar" charade is very desirable. I'm looking to get the Shrader rear seat delete kit so that'll take care of some of the noise. As for the top hats issue, how about something like this? I read the description, but with my limited knowledge, I'm only getting the gist of what all these parts do.

http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/fort...l#.W89MJ1VKii4

It sounds like it might help. What do you think?

As for sway bars, I really dislike roll, plus I hear they can make the car twitchy on the limit, which is scary to me and the #1 reason why I got rid of the OEM tires after a week of driving on them.

Also don't know what the heck these are but they look interesting.

http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/powe...l#.W89NYVVKii4

I think you have those parts already... They look like OEM interior parts to me. (with a hole)


Thanks for he link!! Ordered the roller upgrade!

[StraightOuttaCanadaEh]

Originally Posted by Stang70Fastback

Those bearing caps might be useful if that is one of the sounds you are experiencing. I don't have that issue with my coilovers, but I'm running Raceseng Camber plates which have pretty beefy bearings in them.

The other part you linked to provides holes for a rear brace that would go just above the rear seats. That brace might in theory help with any squeaks and rattles by strengthening the rear area of the body, but I don't know how much of an effect it really has on our cars. On my old Outback, a rear strut tower brace made a HUGE improvement to NVH by eliminating a lot of creaks and rattles. But that was on a 15-year-old station wagon with a tired body that I had put massive swaybars on, so there was a LOT of body flex - especially since wagons are an inherently less stiff structure.

I'll look into the strut brace. Not for handling but for just to tie the two sides together. It may be a new car but I feel like it might improve things. Also regarding coilovers, I'm guessing something like this would be better? With the little dampener/absorber helper things? lol not sure what they're called

http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/blit...l#.W89QgFVKii4

[Stang70Fastback]

Originally Posted by StraightOuttaCanadaEh

I'll look into the strut brace. Not for handling but for just to tie the two sides together. It may be a new car but I feel like it might improve things. Also regarding coilovers, I'm guessing something like this would be better? With the little dampener/absorber helper things? lol not sure what they're called

http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/blit...l#.W89QgFVKii4

Those are remote reservoirs. Let's take a step back. What do you use the car for? What is the use case here? Just throwing money at coilovers won't do anything if you buy something that isn't matched to how you use the vehicle.

[StraightOuttaCanadaEh]

Originally Posted by Stang70Fastback

Those are remote reservoirs. Let's take a step back. What do you use the car for? What is the use case here? Just throwing money at coilovers won't do anything if you buy something that isn't matched to how you use the vehicle.

Mostly a daily driver, so I would like more comfort than the ones I currently have can provide, but not be wallowy and super soft. Still want that direct feeling to remain

[Leonardo]

Originally Posted by StraightOuttaCanadaEh

Mostly a daily driver, so I would like more comfort than the ones I currently have can provide, but not be wallowy and super soft. Still want that direct feeling to remain

There is a thread... Ohlins Vs KW3's. In that price range, these are the coils, IMO, you should be considering, not those Blitz coils.


http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130755







Also these new ones from Racecomp look like a lower cost option for DD.


http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129366

[Stang70Fastback]

Originally Posted by StraightOuttaCanadaEh

Mostly a daily driver, so I would like more comfort than the ones I currently have can provide, but not be wallowy and super soft. Still want that direct feeling to remain

Hopefully others (such as @Racecomp Engineering) will be able to chime in with other suggestions, as I don't know much about the other coilover systems. However, I can recommend the KW V3s. Those are what I run on my car, which I do autocross, but mostly use as a daily driver here in Chicago, where roads are a disaster. I put almost 20,000 miles a year on my car, so ride comfort was a HIGH priority for me.

They are very comfortable, especially with the high-speed bypass valve, which is basically a separate valve that opens when you hit a relatively hard bump, to help absorb the impact. They also have slotted holes up front where the steering knuckle bolts up to the strut body, allowing you to dial in a bit of camber without the need for camber plates. I run the stock top hats on the rear, which is what I would suggest you do, but you could ALSO run the stock top hats up front if you aren't looking for a TON of camber. That would do a LOT to help reduce NVH, and won't add much "slop" in the suspension. I think that alone would probably significantly improve ride quality, but I'm unfamiliar with the MeisterR ZetaCRD coilovers you currently have on your car, so I'm not sure how comfy they are.

Here is a link to the KW V3s, which are right in your price range based on the link you provided earlier.
http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/kw-c...l#.W89TnVVKhhE

[StraightOuttaCanadaEh]

Originally Posted by Stang70Fastback

Hopefully others (such as @Racecomp Engineering) will be able to chime in with other suggestions, as I don't know much about the other coilover systems. However, I can recommend the KW V3s. Those are what I run on my car, which I do autocross, but mostly use as a daily driver here in Chicago, where roads are a disaster. I put almost 20,000 miles a year on my car, so ride comfort was a HIGH priority for me.

They are very comfortable, especially with the high-speed bypass valve, which is basically a separate valve that opens when you hit a relatively hard bump, to help absorb the impact. They also have slotted holes up front where the steering knuckle bolts up to the strut body, allowing you to dial in a bit of camber without the need for camber plates. I run the stock top hats on the rear, which is what I would suggest you do, but you could ALSO run the stock top hats up front if you aren't looking for a TON of camber. That would do a LOT to help reduce NVH, and won't add much "slop" in the suspension. I think that alone would probably significantly improve ride quality, but I'm unfamiliar with the MeisterR ZetaCRD coilovers you currently have on your car, so I'm not sure how comfy they are.

Here is a link to the KW V3s, which are right in your price range based on the link you provided earlier.
http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/kw-c...l#.W89TnVVKhhE

Okay I think Chicago and Toronto have similar road surfaces so that sounds just about right. Good thing I kept my oem coils. I will try that and hope it works cause these are more than twice the price of my coilovers. I think I'll keep OEM top hats in the back only, cause the front doesn't give me issues, just the back. All I know about my current ones is that they're 5kg/mm in the front and 4 in the back.

[Stang70Fastback]

Originally Posted by StraightOuttaCanadaEh

I think I'll keep OEM top hats in the back only, cause the front doesn't give me issues, just the back.

What amount of camber are you running at the front? I honestly would recommend staying with OEM top hats up front too if you can get away with it. It will really help with the NVH.