Tuning AVCS without a dyno (AVCS for Gruppe-S header post 12 and 24)

[Tor]

Originally Posted by elBarto

I think it's thanks to the cold weather my trims are higher, older logs (with higher temps) doesn't show that high LTFT's .
This is a log I made driving to work, temp around 12°c , same tune (without the AVCS obviously)
https://datazap.me/u/elbarto/log-150...ata=1-6-7-9-13

Anyway, thanks for the info appreciated

Those swings are not temperature, but because you drove differently and the trims got set at different manifold pressures vs. rpm in the two logs. The errors in cells are obviously different. The +10 trim doesn't matter, but is most likely caused by wrong IAT compensation below 11 g/s, where the table should have a reversion.

But it's off topic for AVCS. You can see more here:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119535

[solidONE]

So I started to play with my ACVS a bit to see what I get with Kodename47's cam/VE tool. I have not converted anything to Vdyno since were still pumping winter blend fuel over here.

Here is a bit of the initial logs plugged into the program.. How the heck do I determine which squiggly line is better? LMAO Input appreciated sirs. I suppose I'd still need to do some Vdyno or real dyno pulls to see what it's really doing. (VVT1 intake VVT2 exhaust)

[Tor]

Nice to see someone else taking the plunge.

Originally Posted by solidONE

How the heck do I determine which squiggly line is better?

Make bigger changes in both directions, then it might be easier to see a trend. Maybe 3 cams something like this (very rough drawing, but you get the idea):


If you input two cams with like 2 deg difference you will have a hard time seeing a difference. If you check out my post 10, you can see how much I moved my curve up and down. My advantage was I was pretty sure I started out with the right shape. At low rpm it was difficult to see much difference, most evident was above maybe 5000 rpm where I had 4 deg difference between the curves.

Also I would suggest to change one cam at a time.

Leaning back from the screen and squezing my eyes, I would say more exhaust retard below 3500 rpm trends higher - very scientifically.

Vgi was updating the tool, I'm not sure if he finished or is still working on it. Check out if there is a new version or try shooting him a PM.

[Kodename47]

Originally Posted by solidONE

So I started to play with my ACVS a bit to see what I get with Kodename47's cam/VE tool. I have not converted anything to Vdyno since were still pumping winter blend fuel over here.

Here is a bit of the initial logs plugged into the program.. How the heck do I determine which squiggly line is better? LMAO Input appreciated sirs. I suppose I'd still need to do some Vdyno or real dyno pulls to see what it's really doing. (VVT1 intake VVT2 exhaust)

There's a newer update that has smoothing that may help. I raised this after earlier posts and it works.

As per previous posts, adjust the intake cam only and see where that gets you as the gains will be more obvious.

[coxxoc]

What base map are you starting from before making the AVCS changes? I'm on the OFT OTS UEL E85 map (plus many tweaks for the forum) and notice they keep the same AVCS settings for both 91 or E85. I'm using the Gruppe-S header and am willing to log and contribute to finding optimal settings for this header.

[Tor]

Originally Posted by coxxoc

What base map are you starting from before making the AVCS changes? I'm on the OFT OTS UEL E85 map (plus many tweaks for the forum) and notice they keep the same AVCS settings for both 91 or E85. I'm using the Gruppe-S header and am willing to log and contribute to finding optimal settings for this header.

I already did the Gruppe-S header.



There is no difference betweem 91 and E85 in with regards to valve timing. It's flow specific.

Below in copy paste friendly format (maybe I did some tweaks since the picture above, can't remember anymore).

I would much appreciate feedback either as a comment here in this thread or per PM.

Intake:

[Table3D]
0.15000000596046448	0.20000000298023224	0.30000001192092896	0.4000000059604645	0.5	0.6000000238418579	0.699999988079071	0.800000011920929	0.8500000238418579	0.8999999761581421	0.949999988079071	1.0	1.100000023841858	1.2000000476837158	1.2999999523162842	1.399999976158142
800.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	10.0	20.0	20.0	20.0	20.0	20.0	20.0	20.0	20.0	20.0
1000.0	0.0	-5.0	-5.0	-5.0	-5.0	0.0	10.0	20.0	20.0	20.0	20.0	20.0	20.0	20.0	20.0	20.0
1200.0	0.0	-10.0	-10.0	-10.0	-10.0	-10.0	10.0	20.0	20.0	20.0	20.0	20.0	20.0	20.0	20.0	20.0
1600.0	0.0	-10.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	10.0	20.0	25.0	25.0	25.0	25.0	25.0	25.0	25.0	25.0
2000.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	10.0	20.0	30.0	30.0	30.0	30.0	30.0	30.0	30.0	30.0
2200.0	5.0	5.0	15.0	5.0	5.0	5.0	10.0	20.0	33.0	33.0	33.0	33.0	33.0	33.0	33.0	33.0
2400.0	10.0	10.0	20.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	20.0	33.0	35.0	35.0	35.0	35.0	35.0	35.0	35.0
2800.0	10.0	10.0	15.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	20.0	33.0	37.0	37.0	37.0	37.0	37.0	37.0	37.0
3200.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	25.0	33.0	39.0	39.0	39.0	39.0	39.0	39.0	39.0
3600.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	20.0	20.0	20.0	20.0	25.0	33.0	39.0	39.0	39.0	39.0	39.0	39.0	39.0
3800.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	20.0	20.0	20.0	20.0	25.0	33.0	39.0	39.0	39.0	39.0	39.0	39.0	39.0
4000.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	20.0	20.0	20.0	20.0	25.0	33.0	39.0	39.0	39.0	39.0	39.0	39.0	39.0
4200.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	20.0	20.0	20.0	20.0	25.0	33.0	39.0	39.0	39.0	39.0	39.0	39.0	39.0
4400.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	20.0	20.0	20.0	20.0	25.0	33.0	39.0	39.0	39.0	39.0	39.0	39.0	39.0
4600.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	15.0	15.0	20.0	20.0	25.0	33.0	39.0	39.0	39.0	39.0	39.0	39.0	39.0
4800.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	20.0	20.0	25.0	33.0	39.0	39.0	39.0	39.0	39.0	39.0	39.0
5200.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	20.0	20.0	25.0	33.0	38.0	38.0	38.0	38.0	38.0	38.0	38.0
5600.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	20.0	20.0	25.0	33.0	37.0	37.0	37.0	37.0	37.0	37.0	37.0
6000.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	20.0	20.0	23.0	30.0	34.0	34.0	34.0	34.0	34.0	34.0	34.0
6400.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	20.0	20.0	20.0	29.0	29.0	29.0	29.0	29.0	29.0	29.0	29.0
6800.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	20.0	20.0	20.0	23.0	23.0	23.0	23.0	23.0	23.0	23.0	23.0
7000.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	18.0	18.0	18.0	18.0	18.0	18.0	18.0	18.0	18.0	18.0	18.0
7200.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	14.0	14.0	14.0	14.0	14.0	14.0	14.0	14.0	14.0	14.0	14.0
7400.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	10.0	6.0	6.0	6.0	6.0	6.0	6.0	6.0

Exhaust:

[Table3D]
0.15000000596046448	0.20000000298023224	0.30000001192092896	0.4000000059604645	0.5	0.6000000238418579	0.699999988079071	0.800000011920929	0.8500000238418579	0.8999999761581421	0.949999988079071	1.0	1.100000023841858	1.2000000476837158	1.2999999523162842	1.399999976158142
800.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0
1000.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	10.000610376140001	10.000610376140001	10.000610376140001	10.000610376140001	10.000610376140001	10.000610376140001	10.000610376140001	10.000610376140001	10.000610376140001	10.000610376140001	10.000610376140001	10.000610376140001	10.000610376140001
1200.0	0.0	0.0	10.000610376140001	19.99969487337	19.99969487337	19.99969487337	19.99969487337	19.99969487337	19.99969487337	19.99969487337	19.99969487337	19.99969487337	19.99969487337	19.99969487337	19.99969487337	19.99969487337
1600.0	10.000610376140001	19.99969487337	19.99969487337	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003
2000.0	10.000610376140001	19.99969487337	30.000305249510003	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	35.00061043758	35.00061043758	35.00061043758	35.00061043758	35.00061043758	35.00061043758	35.00061043758	35.00061043758	35.00061043758	35.00061043758
2200.0	10.000610376140001	19.99969487337	30.000305249510003	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674
2400.0	10.000610376140001	19.99969487337	30.000305249510003	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674
2800.0	19.99969487337	30.000305249510003	35.00061043758	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674
3200.0	19.99969487337	30.000305249510003	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	35.00061043758	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674
3600.0	19.99969487337	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	35.00061043758	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674
3800.0	19.99969487337	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	35.00061043758	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674
4000.0	19.99969487337	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	35.00061043758	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674
4200.0	19.99969487337	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	35.00061043758	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	39.99938974674
4400.0	19.99969487337	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	35.00061043758	37.50000009216	37.50000009216	37.50000009216	37.50000009216	37.50000009216	37.50000009216	37.50000009216	37.50000009216
4600.0	19.99969487337	30.000305249510003	35.00061043758	35.00061043758	35.00061043758	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	35.00061043758	35.00061043758	35.00061043758	35.00061043758	35.00061043758	35.00061043758	35.00061043758	35.00061043758	35.00061043758
4800.0	19.99969487337	30.000305249510003	35.00061043758	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	32.00073250052	32.49969490409	32.49969490409	32.49969490409	32.49969490409	32.49969490409	32.49969490409	32.49969490409	32.49969490409
5200.0	19.99969487337	30.000305249510003	35.00061043758	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003
5600.0	19.99969487337	30.000305249510003	35.00061043758	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	27.49938971602	27.49938971602	27.49938971602	27.49938971602	27.49938971602	27.49938971602	27.49938971602	27.49938971602
6000.0	19.99969487337	30.000305249510003	35.00061043758	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	27.49938971602	27.49938971602	27.49938971602	27.49938971602	27.49938971602	27.49938971602	27.49938971602	27.49938971602
6400.0	19.99969487337	30.000305249510003	35.00061043758	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	25.00000006144	25.00000006144	25.00000006144	25.00000006144	25.00000006144	25.00000006144	25.00000006144	25.00000006144
6800.0	19.99969487337	30.000305249510003	35.00061043758	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	25.00000006144	25.00000006144	25.00000006144	25.00000006144	25.00000006144	25.00000006144	25.00000006144	25.00000006144
7000.0	19.99969487337	30.000305249510003	35.00061043758	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	30.000305249510003	25.00000006144	25.00000006144	25.00000006144	25.00000006144	25.00000006144	25.00000006144	25.00000006144	25.00000006144
7200.0	19.99969487337	30.000305249510003	35.00061043758	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	28.99932868455	28.99932868455	28.99932868455	25.00000006144	25.00000006144	25.00000006144	25.00000006144	25.00000006144	25.00000006144	25.00000006144	25.00000006144
7400.0	19.99969487337	30.000305249510003	35.00061043758	39.99938974674	39.99938974674	28.99932868455	28.99932868455	28.99932868455	25.00000006144	25.00000006144	25.00000006144	25.00000006144	25.00000006144	25.00000006144	25.00000006144	25.00000006144

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by Tor

Nice to see someone else taking the plunge.



Make bigger changes in both directions, then it might be easier to see a trend. Maybe 3 cams something like this (very rough drawing, but you get the idea):


If you input two cams with like 2 deg difference you will have a hard time seeing a difference. If you check out my post 10, you can see how much I moved my curve up and down. My advantage was I was pretty sure I started out with the right shape. At low rpm it was difficult to see much difference, most evident was above maybe 5000 rpm where I had 4 deg difference between the curves.

Also I would suggest to change one cam at a time.

Leaning back from the screen and squezing my eyes, I would say more exhaust retard below 3500 rpm trends higher - very scientifically.

Vgi was updating the tool, I'm not sure if he finished or is still working on it. Check out if there is a new version or try shooting him a PM.

I loaded 4 different sets of cam timing maps with roughly +5* and -5* intake with and without changing the exhaust cam similar to what I did in the logs that I just plugged in my oft. Just waiting for traffic to die down before taking logs.

Originally Posted by Kodename47

There's a newer update that has smoothing that may help. I raised this after earlier posts and it works.

As per previous posts, adjust the intake cam only and see where that gets you as the gains will be more obvious.

Smoothing! 2vs2


1vs1


Still need to squint my eyes and lean pretty far back to make out any notable difference. Much easier with the smoothing than without, though.

I really want to target the low rpm dead spot I have before the surge of torque. I think you can imagine where it is simply looking at the output of these logs. (3200-3800 rpm)

[Kodename47]

Why not just increase the intake advance in that area to max and see what happens? You have a dip in torque as the cam comes away from max advance..... just saying

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by Kodename47

Why not just increase the intake advance in that area to max and see what happens? You have a dip in torque as the cam comes away from max advance..... just saying

That's exactly what I did. I'm currently on the 5th iteration of cam timing map. Went to take logs at my usual spot.. though instead of good logging session I ended up with speeding ticket care of our friendly local sheriff..........

I did do a map with -5* from baseline and it was noticeably less power and it was reflected in the graphs using your tool.

EDIT:

Red = Retard

Yellow = baseline

blue = adv1

green = adv2


A definite improvement from 3600 to 4100rpm with the intake advance increased from baseline. But it looks like the dip was shifted over 500rpm or so. Opposite is true with intake cam retarded slightly from baseline. I think I can get it a bit better with a bit more tweaking.

[halujeddo]

Out of topic, how can you make those virtual dyno plots? i tried couple of logs but i couldn't
i have the virtual dyno software, even i try to import some logs to it, i got some different error messages. Is there any trick to apply the logs in order to use in virtual dyno?

[Kodename47]

Originally Posted by halujeddo

Out of topic, how can you make those virtual dyno plots? i tried couple of logs but i couldn't
i have the virtual dyno software, even i try to import some logs to it, i got some different error messages. Is there any trick to apply the logs in order to use in virtual dyno?

Depending on the software used,it will be looking for certain cell headers and values. What are you using for logging?

[halujeddo]

Originally Posted by Kodename47

Depending on the software used,it will be looking for certain cell headers and values. What are you using for logging?

i am using Openflashtablet to log

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by halujeddo

Out of topic, how can you make those virtual dyno plots? i tried couple of logs but i couldn't
i have the virtual dyno software, even i try to import some logs to it, i got some different error messages. Is there any trick to apply the logs in order to use in virtual dyno?

Check this out:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59743

https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...-properly.html

[solidONE]

Did some logging after reverting to the baseline exhaust timing with the adv2 intake and this was the result. Doesn't seems very realistic that its running that much better. Maybe the application doesnt take into account IAT or ambient temp differences? Although they were all within 5*f in terms of IAT difference. What do you think @Kodename47 ?

Red and blue trace: most recent iteration for valve timing maps "adv2" intake map(with baseline exhaust)

Green: Previous map "adv2" intake map with exhaust more retarded than baseline

Yellow: Baseline exhaust with adv1 (slightly advanced intake cam)




EDIT: Okay I think I know what is causing the discrepancy.. On the newest map I also modified the MAf scale very slightly (+3% from about 3.0-4.0 maf voltages) because it was running a bit too lean on this winter blend petrol. The increase in VE must be about 3% from before because the maf values increase 3%... my bad. lol

edit 2:
MAf Scale corrected results. Not much of a difference.